LL-L "Language use" 2002.09.11 (04) [D/E/V]
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Wed Sep 11 23:50:43 UTC 2002
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L O W L A N D S - L * 11.SEP.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic
V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: "Frans Vermeulen" <vermeulen.vastgoed at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2002.09.11 (03) [D/E/LS]
Beste Gabriele,
Iedereen doet maar wat hij goed vindt, maar ik pleit ervoor dat
iedereen,
ter wille van zovele logische redenen, de moed zou opbrengen zijn
bijdrage
te leveren in zijn eigen moedertaal. Ik heb niets tegen het Engels, wel
integendeel, maar wel iets tegen de stelselmatige verengelsing wat
noodzakelijk gepaard gaat met cultuurvervlakking. In de eigen moedertaal
kan
men alles o zo veel beter uitdrukken en is men o zoveel meer
genietbaar...
ook voor anderstaligen! Voor een internationaal forum rond de
"Lowlands"-talen geldt dit niet minder, integendeel het komt ten goede
aan
taalverdieping en de doelmatigheid om daartoe te komen.
Mijn vrome wensdroom is gerechtvaardigd, maar dat kan niet worden
afgedwongen, iedereen doet het volgens zijn eigen dosis zelf- en
eigen-taaleerbied. En, wees nu eens eerlijk uw antwoord zou toch veel
gemakkelijker, vlotter, natuurlijker en zwieriger overkomen in uw
moedertaal? Of vergis ik mij?
Vriendelijke groeten,
Frans Vermeulen
----------
From: "Wim" <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2002.09.11 (03) [D/E/LS]
>From wim...wkv at home.nl
Hi!
In other words? "They can me what?"
Actually I don't know how to write in my own dialect, Sallands, so I use
English, or maybe German, but that's language is not on the
list...sorry!
I can read all the other languages though, the point of speech is to
communicate....
So I'll stick to English...
Wim.
[Wim Verdoold]
----------
From: "oostendse verhalen" <verhalen at oostendseverhalen.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2002.09.11 (03) [D/E/LS]
'k ving't heweun ne kwèstje van beleefdhiet da je e twien die an an den
andere kant van de wèreld zit en e vrahe gesteld et in't Iengels ook
probeert te antwoordn in die tale. En k' doen da zèfs in verwoatert en
zielloos Iengels omdank nie béter kunn! An den andere kant hoan oak nie
kunn reaheren in 't Schots op oenderwerpn in 't Schots, wa moenk ton
doen,
Nederlans, Westvlams of meschien toch me bestn doen in 't Iengels?
T'is hèèl wad anders dan twi pipo's van dezèfste taele die an iederèèn
roend
under wil tohn da z'Iengels kunn. Da zien dikke nekn , en doavan komt me
oar
ook rechte.
Moa kwiln de noaste ki herust reahérn in mien Ostens-westvlamsche tale
en
meschien goad e twien van de ander kant van den andere kant van de
wèreld da
beter verstoan dan verwoaterd Iengels, 't is te probérn. Want taele is
in d'
ééste plekke kummunikoasje en 't is toch de bedoelienge dan m' elkoar
verstoen hé.
Danny drooghenbroodt, Oostende
----------
From: "Luc Hellinckx" <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Language use
Beste leeglanners,
I can't agree with the proposal of Mr. Vermeulen.
Because :
1) Giving people the freedom to write their ideas in a language
different
from their native one can give them a bigger audience. Don't we all
rather
want to see the number of subscribers growing than shrinking ?
2) If somebody feels more at ease using his native language : why not ?
But
I would personally never make it a compulsory rule. Surely the content
of
somebody's message is way more important than the medium he or she is
using.
3) My native language (Brabantish) has no official recognition, so which
language am I to use then ?
??? Dutch, because it has been imposed on me during schooltime (in a
sterile, artificial way) ???
I have no problem whatsoever with any language in the world; that's
precisely why standardisation often makes me raise my eyebrows.
Diversity is great, because it adds "colour" to my life and economy will
smoothen the ripples if the waves get too high, I think *s*
Greetings,
Luc Hellinckx
----------
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language use
Folks,
This is an old debate that occasionally comes out of the woodwork. By
saying this I am not implying that it is unimportant. Personally I feel
that this is not an issue of right vs. wrong; much rather, it is an
issue involving mostly preference and common sense. In other words, no
one in the debate Frans initiated is wrong, but there are various
circumstances, abilities and preferences, none of which is
inappropriate.
There is only one error. It is one that keeps on creeping in, and I
keep on setting it straight. This error is the belief or assumption
that only Lowlands language varieties may be used in LL-L postings.
This is simply incorrect, and it is stated nowhere in our
introductions. What our rules and guidelines say about this is the
following:
<quote>
There is free choice of language in Lowlands-L postings, but the
following language varieties are preferred: Afrikaans, Dutch, Zeelandic
(Zeêuws and Western. Flemish), Limburgish, Frisian (any variety), Low
Saxon, English and Scots. You need not limit this to standard varieties;
postings in any dialect are welcome.
</quote>
In other words, you may compose your postings in any which language you
wish. If it is Swahili, Kashubian, Nenets, Saami, Ainu or whatever, no
one tells you that you cannot do so. So, assuming that you cannot use
German, or French, or whatever, is simply baseless.
However, having said all this, allow me to turn to the issue of reason
or common sense. Obviously, the more "exotic" and unusual your language
of choice is perceived within this forum, the fewer people will
understand you. However, if you do not mind posting for one or two
subscribers or for none at all (posting into a black hole), that is your
choice, albeit not a terribly clever one by most people's standards. If
your native and/or strongest language proficiency happens to be German,
Scandinavian, French, Spanish or Portuguese, and you feel out of your
element in English or in another Lowlands language, you would probably
be understood by quite a few people on this list if you used them. I am
not suggesting that you do so, am merely saying that it is one of your
choices.
Official status (in the real world) is not an issue on Lowlands-L
regarding language use. All varieties are official here if their users
feel they ought to be. Thus, if you want to write in Brabantish or in
Western Flemish, by all means go for it! (I've added those two to our
abbreviation line-up to dispel any residual misapprehension.)
Yes, the use of Lowlands languages is encouraged and is preferred by
most subscribers. No, it is not mandated. I use English for
administrative purposes simply because I can reach most people that
way. Oftentimes, when, as an ordinary subscriber, I write about
Lowlands Saxon (Low German) topics I will use LS, and in many such cases
I will add an English version or summary for the benefit of other
readers, especially for the benefit of those of them who wish to learn
(about) this language.
English is one of these "Lowlands languages." This creates a situation
in which some people may feel uneasy, because English also happens to be
the global lingua franca and is as such blamed and demonized by many who
attribute the death of "smaller" language to this "evil" English
language. First let us get this straight: there is nothing demonic or
evil about the English language. On the contrary, it has proven to be
extremely adaptable to all kinds of cultures, thus growing richer by the
day, and, despite its "silly" writing system, it is, as a second or
third language, largely to be thanked for bringing the world's people
closer together and, in conjunction with modern media, for affording us
glimpses of people's lives, cultures and thoughts anywhere in the world,
for communicating with people anywhere. Languages are not weakened and
killed because of English but because people and/or their legislators
permit or even promote the displacement of their own languages in favor
of English (or French, Spanish, Portuguese, Russian or Chinese).
Personally, I find it in my heart, without the slightest sense of
contradiction, to help save and promote non-power languages and at the
same time enjoy and even love English.
English use is not necessarily "soulless" when used by non-native
speakers. My English, which is not my native language, may not be
perfect, but I would not consider it "soulless," nor would I describe as
such Gabriele's, Elsie's, Andrys', Mathieu's, Roman's and many other
Lowlanders' English as such. I feel that language use, proficiency and
confidence differ from person to person. Not all people are more
proficient in their "mother languages" (= native languages) than in a
second or third one. Many of them are not, such as children of
immigrants who tend to end up more proficient in the power language than
in the one with which they grew up. Yes, on the other hand, many people
are indeed more proficient in their native languages than in English or
some other power languages, and they feel they cannot express themselves
(i.e., their "souls") adequately using anything but their native
language. By all means, they should use it here, all the better if it
is a Lowlands one.
I do strongly encourage Lowlanders to use Lowlands languages other than
English, in part because people understand more and more of them the
longer they get exposed to them. However, at the same time I condemn no
one for using English. Furthermore, "everyone their own native
language" may sound laudable at first, but I find it too restrictive
too. I am perfectly happy if our subscribers use Lowlands languages
that are not their native ones but are languages they are studying. So
*what* if they make mistakes? I would like to think that we are family
enough to allow people to do so without making them feel bad,
embarrassed and eventually give up. As many of you can attest, I have
been known to dabble with Scots, Dutch, Afrikaans and even Frisian once
in a while. So I made mistakes, and people were kind enough to correct
me, privately or on the List, and I appreciated that and did not really
feel embarrassed. I never got hate mail for having butchered other
people's languages. Why not? Probably because everyone here knows that
I respect all language varieties equally and would never dream of making
fun of them, that my wish to learn to use them myself is sincere. I
would like to think that I share this attitude with most
fellow-Lowlanders.
So let's keep celebrating variety and diversity of languages and
choices!
Cheerio!
Reinhard/Ron
Kes mõist, see mõist mõlepit pidi.
"He who understands will understand two ways." Estonian proverb]
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