LL-L "Language survival" 2002.09.30 (06) [E]
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic
V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Friedrich-Wilhelm Neumann <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.09.30 (03) [D/E]
Hi, George, Ron,
You wrote (George):
> Old Prussian, a close relative of
> Lithuanian - the most conservative of all the Indo-European languages -
> survived along with a trinitarian paganism related to early Hinduism
> (equivalents of Agni, Indra and Varuna being chief gods) into the 18th
> century. .,
and You (Ron)
> Interestingly, Pomeranian Slavic "paganism," too, had as its main deity
> Triglav ("Three-Head"), the three-headed god. I wonder if this was a part
> of imported Slavic belief or a Baltic substrate, or both.
That is absolutely new for me!
As You can see in my name my father came from the region of Kaliningrad
(former Koenigsberg), and he made some studies about Old Prussia and the
"Pruzzen" in his older years.
He did never mention anything like that "Triglav" (UG: "Dreiglaube???"). He
was very aware but about his/my slavic ancestors from this side of Europe.
But- as far as I still can remember (I wasn't so much interested in those
things at that time) he told about some influence of the Vikings there.
By the way, George- some days ago You wrote about some ideas to conservate
the East Prussian dialect phonetically on a tape or something else.
My brother and I grew up with from my father and my grandmother hearing
every day their Prussian tongues, and from our farmhand, also Eastern
Prussian, we heard the "Platt-" ("low-*) version of it. We two also liked to
talk this way in our younger times, but I fear, we are too far away from the
sound of really native speakers. Later we were *forced* and willing to learn
our regional Low Saxon dialect! One *minor* language had to die for another
*lesser* (see M. Wintzer) one - isn't that funny?
Regards
Fiete.
(Friedrich W. Neumann)
-----
"SOMETHING WICKED THIS WAY COMES..."
("Iced Earth")
----------
From: Friedrich-Wilhelm Neumann <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.09.29 (08) [E]
Mike, Ron
both of You are a kind of "Rising Hope" for my pessimism!
But- we should frankly look into the eyes of truth: we have to archivate, to
archivate and to archivate again!
Other members of LL-L did point out the fact, that every language always is
a mirror of times, of social life, of technics and philosophy- of human
developement.
That is going on everyday and everywhere on this earth. It is necessary and
can't be denied even by people on the other side of their fiftieth (as
me)*s*.
In my talks to older (native Low Saxon) neighbours I hear a lot of special
words, "termini technici", undivorcable connected with their former work,
regional problems to get along and more.
These expressions have to be conserved in a "linguistic museum" and will by
no means be able to take part in a living, modern (in the meaning of "still
used") language.
That went on since the begin of human-beings able to speak, is nothing new
and not dramatical, as I think.
I have to confess, that I don't like LS-lyrics so very much, because every
poetrist is forced to look for very uncommon, mostly unknown words to
fulfill his rhymes or verses. I find it hard for a native speaker to be
confrontated with many words he is unable to understand.
But- I cannot imagine a better archive for (nearly) forgotten words and
expressions!
(Stop-it's no longer Sunday *s*)
Regards, Kumpelmenten, Greutens
Fiete.
(Friedrich W. Neumann)
-----
"SOMETHING WICKED THIS WAY COMES..."
("Iced Earth")
----------
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language survival
Moin, Fiete!
I think what you are talking about are the Germanic dialect groups of
"Prussia" ("Western Prussia" and "Eastern Prussia"): Lowlands Saxon (Low
German): "West Prussian 'Platt'" (to which Mennonite Plautdietsch belongs)
and "East Prussian 'Platt' (with which your father and my paternal
grandmother grew up), and German: _Ostpreußisch_ (a sub-group of
_Ostmitteldeutsch_).
The language George was talking about was the *real* Prussian, the language
of the original Prussians who in German came to be called by their Old or
Middle German name _Pruzzen_ to distinguish them from the _Preußen_, the
German power that had usurped their name. As George mentioned, the Prussian
language--usually called _Altpreußisch_ in German--belonged to the Baltic
group (specifically to Western Baltic) of the Indo-European family, and thus
it is most closely related to the surviving Eastern Baltic members Latvian
and Lithuanian, as well as to the now extinct East Prussian Kurian language
(an area of Western Latvia that in German is known as _Kurland_).
> He did never mention anything like that "Triglav" (UG: "Dreiglaube???").
That does not surprise me terribly if his field of interest was Germanic
culture and history. Please also bear in mind that, at least in the past
and in Western Germany, Germany's Slavic past was a bit of a non-topic,
certainly in primary and secondary education. (Some of the better works in
this field were published under the auspices of the former East German
government.)
> He
> was very aware but about his/my slavic ancestors from this side of Europe.
By the time the area came to be well and truly settled (i.e., overrun and
occupied) by Germanic-speakers, the original religions ("paganism") of that
and other eastern regions, as well as those in the west, had become
outlawed. I do not need to elaborate on what the church did to people who
kept practicing their beliefs openly. If you read "serious" works on
pre-Christian (West) Slavic history you will find references to it, perhaps
also pictures of unearthed wooden figures of Triglav and other deities. The
Slavic Pomeranians of today's Germany's Baltic Sea coast (whose closest
relatives are the Kashubians of Northern Poland) had several sacred places
in which Triglav and others were worshipped, among them the fortress of
Arkona on the Island of Rugia (_Rügen_), the area of Rethra, and Swante
Wastrow (literally "holy/sacred island" in Slavic Pomeranian).
> "Triglav" (UG: "Dreiglaube???").
No, "three-head(s)"; cf. Russian _golova_, Ukrainian _golova_, Czech
_hlava_, Lower Sorbian _gl/owa_, Upper Sorbian _hl/owa_, _Polabian _glåv at _,
Old Church Slavonic _glava_ < Proto-Slavic *_golva_ 'head'.
> I have to confess, that I don't like LS-lyrics so very much, because every
> poetrist is forced to look for very uncommon, mostly unknown words to
> fulfill his rhymes or verses. I find it hard for a native speaker to be
> confrontated with many words he is unable to understand.
I might agree with you if you are restricting this to hoomp-papa rhyme style
verse, especially where syntax and lexicon get "bent" for the sake of rhythm
and rhyme. I personally feel--and, yes, I am partial here, as some of you
know--that "modern" styles of poetry in LS can achieve a lot in that they
(1) are to be terse and thus to make each word count, and (2) because it
gives the speaker community the idea that their language can be used for
"elevated" and "avant-garde" genres as well, thus is not inferior to German
and Dutch.
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
----------
From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Language survival"
> From: John M. Tait <jmtait at wirhoose.co.uk>
> Subject: LL-L "History" 2002.09.27 (10) [E]
>
> Regarding Sandy and Ron's comments on this, I think there is a major
> difference in the case of Scots, and certainly in the case of Shetlandic,
> within the last twenty years or so. The difference might be described in
> terms of stages. When I was young, Shetlandic was the only language anyone
> in my community spoke, with the exceptions of the minister, the
> doctor, and
> the schoolteacher. In communities where Scots has rather less
> prestige, many
> of those who learn it, learn it not at home, but in the
> playground. In other
> words, the children of 'nice' parents learn the language from the children
> of those who are not so concerned that their children learn to speak
> 'proper.' When the number of 'good' parents outweighs the 'bad' parents -
> who, to adopt the point of view of the 'good' parents, care so little for
> their children that they burden them with a sub-standard speech
> form - then
> the language is moribund.
It doesn't follow.
All your examples do is establish a trend - you also have
to establish why this trend should persist. Although
languages may be dying out wholesale, languages exist in
many different situations and have a lot of individuality.
Just because a population is declining doesn't mean all but
a few will survive. It could even be said that trends are
made to be broken because they carry the seeds of their own
destruction, in the form of the idea that quantity produces
quality. An increasing trend is a question of something
being piled on steadily until something changes - a pile of
child's bricks is just too high and finally topples over,
the people rebel against the latest minor tax increase
because some personal wealth threshhold has been crossed.
On the other hand the qualitative change that finally
results from a persistent trend can be productive - a
critical mass is reached and things can begin to happen.
Diminishing trends can be more predictable - instead of a
critical mass being reached, the thing can get insupportably
small and disappear. This is probably what raises concerns
about language death.
However, your examples also seem selective, in the sense
that they all indicate diminishing trends. There are also
increasing trends in Scots, particularly with written
Scots - although a lot of the Scots written in the 20th
century has been poorer quality than ever before, the
"Lallans Movement" still established the idea that Scots
doesn't have to be written as a dialect of English and in
fact only really works if it isn't. The later 20th century
also saw the publication of Lorimer's New Testament, which
is in what might be the best Scots ever written.
Although it seems as if Lorimer has been largely ignored,
it actually represents a serious trend-breaking possibility.
It certainly lays low the old idea that Scots is only suited
to the writing of humour and reminiscences. How do we know
there isn't some brilliant young writer with a reasonable
Scots-speaking background who's capable of integrating the
lessons in Lorimer with his own background to produce
outstanding works in Scots that will be so good that people
will want to read it in spite of not being familiar with
written Scots?
This sort of thing has happened before. Fergusson and Ramsay
were writing very good stuff, and when a relatively uneducated
genius like Burns came on the scene, there was Fergusson and
Ramsay's Scots diction for him to study and become familiar
with how to write Scots. Burns wasn't really recognised in
his time, but within a century his works were on the shelves
of most Scottish households, beside the King James Bible. The
effect of even a single book like this shouldn't be underestimated
in the preservation of a living language - I myself remember
pulling the Burns book from my parents' bookshelf at an early
age and finding out for the first time that Scots could be written.
Although this is about written Scots, I think that there may
come a time when there's a critical mass of written Scots,
after which many more people will start writing it, and as a
result, speaking it better and in wider social circles. A
qualitative change like this depends on a critical mass being
reached. This is why I think ScotsteXt is important: whereas
before only a few books have been readily available in Scots
(mainly Burns and Lorimer - don't miss the fact that although
Lorimer seems to be ignored, he always sells well enough to
stay in print) now there are hundreds. It's not just the
enjoyment of being able to read all those texts, it's also
the statement that Scots has a huge literature, and the study
resources being available for any writers who may want to
continue this great tradition and extend the literature.
The 20th Century saw the publication of the SND and now we
have Colin's book as the latest addition to the critical mass.
Think of what we have now that we didn't have until relatively
recently:
Huge ten-volume language dictionary;
New Testament in extremely high-register Scots;
Major text book for learners, with tapes;
Large body of Scots literature readily available worldwide;
Parliament that might yet be persuaded to provide decent
translations of its bumph into Scots;
And so on.
As Ron has pointed out, the existence of the Internet opens up
many new possibilities for breaking trends, no matter how long
they may have been established. You can either go down the
plughole with the prophets of doom, or you can seize the
opportunity and try to rescue at least your own language!
Sandy
http://scotstext.org/
----------
From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Language survival
Beste leeglanners,
For those of you that are interested in Brabantish, I'd like to point out
that a meeting will take place on the 12th of October 2002 in Ternat ("De
Ploter", Belgium). During this day (happening once in every two years), many
Brabantish topics will be dealt with, ranging from purely linguistic to more
"playful" ones.
I'm not a member of the organising committee "Stichting Brabantse Dialecten"
(yet) though, so please believe me when I say that I won't get any personal
benefit from this event (except a scientific one). I just think it's not
such a bad idea to bring like-minded people together, especially on this eve
of massive language extinction. Some more information on the "Stichting
Brabantse Dialecten" can be found here :
http://www.leuven.be/vereniging/SBD/
In this regard, I'm afraid that I have to share the (somewhat pessimistic)
point of view that Ron Hahn and Ole Stig Andersen have expressed. Biological
diversity might be easier to establish than linguistic variety *s*, because
this time, the subject is us : humans, and one of our key characteristics is
: (swift) adaptability (no matter which language we speak). Demographics
will do the rest...such is life...
Strangely this reminds me of an article I read today : German scientists
predicted that the last person with blond hair will probably be born in
Finland and there won't be any blondes left by the year 2202. Why ? Because
the gen for blond hair is not dominant *s*. Once again Finland seems to
become a haven for a residual phenomenon (besides speaking a
pre-Indo-European language).
Greetings,
Luc Hellinckx
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