LL-L "Language learning" 2003.02.17 (02) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 17.FEB.2003 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: Alannah Stepa <astepa at shaw.ca>
Subject: Language Learning

>From Alannah Sheriland astepa at shaw.ca

I learned to speak Dutch in a situation that very different from most of the
other replies. I was offered a job in a small town close to Rotterdam, which
I accepted. I had no language skills other than high school French. My work,
in an OR, was not dependent on my verbal skills but on professional
techniques.

A couple of people on staff spoke English but, for the most part, I had to
learn the language by listening, looking and imitation. There were no
grammatical explanations and my reading and writing skills limited, at
first, to the requirements of my job.

Being submerged in the language gave me a different perspective on learning
a language than my classroom experience. In a classroom I learned to
"translate" living a country with a new language you cannot do that, it
simply is not possible. I learned "street talk" not the formalized classroom
language.
In part, Dutch was easy to learn because many of the words have the same
meaning in English and French was integrated with Dutch freely; sometimes
used in preference to Dutch, for example "qui" was the accepted way of
saying "yes" and a bag (purse) was tasje, an umbrella, parapluie, however I
could not translate some of the more "Germanic" phrases because I had no
real comprehension of what I was hearing.
I could write them phonetically and read them but I could not spell them in
Dutch.(reading and writing are not the same) By observation I figured out
what a rough translation was and when to use that phrase. I did not find the
sentence construction difficult as I was learning it by imitation not by
theory.

When I went to most other parts of Holland my dialect was understood,
however when I went to Antwerp I could have been speaking another language.
I also had problems when I went to Den Hagh.

Two incidents indicated my success of learning the language, the first when
I woke and realized that I had been dreaming in Dutch and the second when an
English friend visited and I had problems translating into English.

In Dutch the general rule is that you walk "in' a street, however in reality
there this rule changes when you must walk "on" it, this is when the street
is a dijk as one cannot walk in a dijk.

I had problems with the "ui" sound, as in huis, and never did master it and
I know some of the other more subtle pronunciations where incorrect. The
Dutch did not care, I was trying to speak their language and to that to them
was the most important thing, mispronunciations were secondary.

Alannah
astepa at shaw.ca

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From: Wim <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2003.02.16 (12) [E]

From: wkv at home.nl zwolle city netherlands...

Hi,

Well if the Dutch don't understand your hard learned Dutch, and try to
switch to English while speaking with you...just tell them..."you can me
what!"
"Ik wil nederlands leren... lol"

Wim.

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From: frank verhoft <frank_verhoft at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language learning

Hi Ruud, hi all

First of all, thank you for the many replies on the topic so far!
I'm going waiting for a digest since i want to include answers from other
mail groups too, in so far they are relevant to the discussion.

I like Ruud's down to earth comments and promotion of common sense very
much. The ideas about dialect and standard language caught my eye, since
it's a topic debated in our school these days (i teach "NT2" in a CVO in
Antwerpen, Belgium (lit.) "center for adult education"). In those
discussions, we have a kind of running gag that in a few years we'll
recognise the immigrants by their use of the standard language as opposed to
the natives, at least here in Antwerp :).
K, like any joke, it's a gross exaggeration, and i do realise that dialects
complicate matters.

<<<I think as a foreign learner it's best to completely ignore any dialects,
as they only complicate matters. That is unless you are interested in them,
because interesting they certainly are. I think except in some parts of the
Netherlands, and more parts of Belgium, dialects aren't very much alive
anymore. For a foreign learner, some knowledge of the standard language
should suffice to be able to communicate.<<<

But nevertheless many teachers here choose not to completely ignore regional
variation. Most of us mention (beware, it's not the same as "teach") some
aspects of the local tongue (rather than local dialect), or explain regional
usages when asked for, such as the use of "gij" in stead of SD "jij", the
omition of word initial 'h', and a lot of lexical items and frozen
expressions: everybody here will understand if they ask "Hoe gaat het met
jou?", but quite many of the students were astonished to learn that "Hoe is
't?", which is used more frequently by the natives, means exactly the same.
Nevertheless, i'm becoming more and more aware what a hell of a job it is to
learn all the different Dutch's, whether SD in class, or regional Dutch on
the streets...

Ruud:
<<<Both [pronunciations of 'r'] are valid and native pronunciations, in both
countries. The actual phonetics of the r, regarding postion in the word,
region, age, and personal variations, are very very complicated. As a
foreign learner, I think you should adopt a pronunciation that is close
enough to one of the many native styles, and which is easiest for you, and
ignore the actual complexity.<<<

Again i agree with you, Ruud, and both/all variants are of course accepted.
So nobody should worry about producing or having difficulties with one of
the 'r's.

But perception can be another thing... You can guess what happens when
Chinese and Japanese students on the one hand (for them, a "thoatie" 'r'
seems easier to learn), and students with a let's say Turkish background
(tongue 'r') start to interact...
Last week, my Moroccan and Chechen students in two separate classes
mentioned the use of the "throatie" 'r' by two native people who came by to
do a test, and they complained that they didn't understood all of what them
both said: the students  mixed the 'r' up with a 'ch'-sound. K, it was a
difficult test, which is a reason to start searching for so called annoying
details, but it struck me that both groups came up with the same comments.

Anyway, thanks for the comments!

Frank

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