LL-L "Grammar" 2003.02.27 (12) [E]

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From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Grammar"

> From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Grammar
>
> I would argue for the case of Estuary English - and
> possibly further afield, that the use of 'of' is
> acceptable. In the short answer to a 'Could you
> have...?' question in Standard British English it's
> 'yes, I could have' (I think in American it tends to
> just be 'yes I could'). The 'have' in this context is
> ever more frequently pronounced as 'of' with a full
> 'o' as opposed to with a schwa. In all other contexts
> the 'have' is pronounced with a schwa - as in standard
> English (could've) - I admit it's non-standard, but
> perfectly acceptable as a dialectal difference.

I would also mention the famous American short story
writer Sherwood Anderson. Although he spent most of his
career as a newspaper editor, and writes his stories in
an excellent formal narrative style, he always used the
spelling "of" for this use of the word "have".

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

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From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Grammar"

> From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
> Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2003.02.26 (04) [E]
>
> At 08:28 AM 02/26/03 -0800, Criostir wrote:
>
> >I always used to write, "my wife and me" but caved in recently after
> getting
> >weary of being 'corrected' to "my wife and I". I still say _mi waaif en
> mie_
> >when I speak, though.
>
> I'm confused.  When did you write this?  Obviously it's quite correct in
> the objective form, such as in "He gave it to my wife and me," but
> incorrect in the subjective form, as in "My wife and me went to the
> theatre" (though usually that comes out as "Me and my wife...").  It's not
> a real big deal to me, but to use these forms in the wrong places is still
> a big class identifier, isn't it?  What I would tell my daughter when she
> started picking up a few of these practices from school is if you're also
> prepared to say "Me went to the theatre," then at least no one could fault
> you for inconsistency.

"Me and My wife went to the theatre" has been a normal
form in English for centuries, and has never put anyone
in danger of saying "Me went to the theatre."

Conversely, people who are brought up to say "My wife
and I went to the theatre" often make the hypercorrection
"She came to the theatre with my wife and I". Again, this
is without falling into the trap of saying "She came to
the theatre with I."

It's a mistake to apply Latin grammar in English,
and in English the most normal contruction is (as Ian
pointed out) that the "me/her/him/them" forms (I won't
say 'object forms' as, again, that's getting confused
with Latin) are used when the pronoun is used in conjuction
with other nouns or pronouns.

While I'd say "me an my wife" is more normal in Scots
than "my wife an me" (and "my wife an I" is almost never
heard), I think I'll follow Ron's example and present a
song that demonstrates the less usual form  :)

It's by Thomas C. Latte, to the tune of "Toddlin Hame"...

MY WIFIE AN' ME.

THE laddies now laugh at my wifie and me,
Tho' auld aboon countin', yet canty are we;
They scarce can believe me, when aften I say
My Kate and her jo were ance blithesome as they.
    My wifie an' me, my wifie an' me,
    What gars them a' laugh at my wifie an' me?

Now wither'd an' cripple, an' maistly as frail
As the wa's o' our housie that rock i' the gale;
Wha ance wi' the lasses could jig it wi' me;
Or shaw'd sic a leg, an' wha loupit sae hie?
    My wifie an' me, &c.

Though my pow is now bel' as the howe o' my han',
An' the crap on my chin's like the down o' the swan,
The day's been my haffets fu' richly were cleid,
When the een now sae dim could be match'd wi' the gled.
    My wifie an' me, &c.

An' Kate! my auld lassie, it seems like yestreen
Sin' ye were run after frae mornin' to een;
Then happy the lad frae ye're ee could beguile
What his fancy might count as the gift o' a smile.
    My wifie an' me, &c.

A' day what a steer did ye mak' in my breast;
Night fauldit her wings, but she brought me nae rest;
My blude gallop'd wild as a cowte owre the green,
An' my heart it gaed duntin' the lang simmer een.
    My wifie an' me, &c.

But Katy, my dawtie! tho' auld we hae grown,
The love's but the firmer sae early was sown;
As canty's we've speel'd it we'll slip down life's brae,
An' we'll creep aye the closer the langer we gae.
    My wifie an' me, my wifie an' me,
    Just let them laugh on at my wifie an' me!

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

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