LL-L "Language survival" 2003.07.25 (05) [E/LS/German]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 25.JUL.2003 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze굷s)
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From: Mike <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2003.07.08 (06) [E/LS]

> > Subject: > SORBIAN SCHOOL IN CROSTWITZ WILL BE DEFINITELY SHUT DOWN!

When reading through Ron´s answer to Frija and Fiete,
it was literally jumping up in down in my seat with a key
question. And then towards the end, Ron asked it himself:

> Perhaps the argument should be in favor of Lowlands Saxon schools, not
> in favor of abolishing Sorbian schools.
>
I´d like to put three fat exclamation marks under this:

!!!

Our local Occitan school was created ten years ago
out of nothing, by a few determined parents.
True it continues to be harssed by the authorities
at every occasion, but it is alive and well.
Maybe it takes but a few courageous parents
to open the first LS school?
Ron: Don´t you think that
    SASSISCHE SCHOOL
would carry more weight than
    NIEDERDEUTSCHE SCHULE ?
Kumpelmenten, Mike Wintzer

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From: Mike <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2003.07.09 (04) [E/German]

Daniel Ryan Prohaska wrote:

> Here' what I wrote to the minister of Saxony and his minister of culture
> and education:
>
> Wien, 09.07.2003
>
> Sehr geehrter Herr Ministerpr sident Prof. Dr. Georg Milbradt, sehr
> geehrter Kultusminister Prof.Dr.Karl Mannsfeld,
>
> Betr.: Schlieung der Crostwitzer Schule
>
Daniel, I want to congratulate you! Your letter hits the nail on the head!
My letter was much shorter, I am submitting it to the LLlist for
completeness:

Sehr geehrter Herr Ministerpräsident,
Ihren Beschluss, die sorbisch-sprachige Schule in Crostwitz zu schließen,
haben mit mir meine hiesigen Landsleute, die an ein pluralistisches Europa
glauben, mit Ungläubigkeit aufgenommen. Er erscheint uns wie ein Rückfall in
eine überwunden gegaubte Vergangenheit, und wir bitten Sie daher, Ihren
Beschluss noch einmal zu überprüfen.
mit bestem Dank im Voraus,
Mike Wintzer

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From: Mike <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2003.07.10 (05) [E/German]

Ron wrote

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language survival
>
> Dear Lowlanders,
>
> Below is a copy of the letter I will send to the prime minister of Saxony
> with regard to the closure of the Sorbian school of Chrósćicy/Crostwitz.
I
> do not have enough time to create an English translation but will do so if
> this is widely requested.
>
> I encourage everyone to join us in the letter writing campaign.  Letters
in
> English should be fine.
>
> Mike Wintzer's original announcement of this case can be found in our
> archives here:
>
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0307A&L=lowlands-l&P=R321
>
> Thanks for your attention and support!
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron
>
> ***
>
> Ministerpräsident Prof. Dr. Georg Milbradt
> Archivstraße 1
> 01097 Dresden
> Germany
> ministerpraesident at dd.sk.sachsen.de | info at georg-milbradt.de
>
> Betreff: Schule Chrósćicy/Crostwitz
>
> Werter Herr Ministerpräsident,
>
> Hiermit bringe ich Bestürztheit und Protest zum Ausdruck hinsichtlich der
etc...

Bravo and Thanks, Ron!
I hope MANY Lowlanders will follow your, Frija´s, Daniel´s (and my) example.
To your pens, folks!

Mike Wintzer

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From: Mike <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2003.07.08 (06) [E/LS]

> > Subject: > SORBIAN SCHOOL IN CROSTWITZ WILL BE DEFINITELY SHUT DOWN!

Frija writes: "Dieses ist ein Verbrechen"
Fiete writes: "Nun mool jmmer sinnig mit de juongen Peer!
Datt is heel schood, wat soo 'n School dichtmookt waardt"
Now is it "a pity", or a "crime"?
It would appear that there is some need for more discussions.
Ron´s exposé of this question with respect to the specific case
of the Sorbs appears to answer the question unequivocally.

Personnally I would like to see much more on this subject
(language survival) in the LLlist. After all, isn´t the raison d´être
of our group not the affection for endangered languages
(which most LLlanguages are)? Can being occupied with these
languages be limited to linguistic studies and for the
rest just to witnessing as mere observers their continuing assassination ?

As Arthur Jones recently wrote in this space:
"We form part of a great chain of cultural and linguistic history far too
valuable to let disappear.
Thank all of you for preserving and strengthening that chain."

Kumpelmenten, Mike Wintzer

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From: Mike <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Language policies" 2003.07.23 (09) [E/LS]

Ron wrote

> How could it be otherwise if the status quo keeps being defended and
> preserved?  Don't you see the circularity caused by the defence of this
> status quo defence argument?  Do I *really* need to explain?

I write AMEN

Mike Wintzer

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From: Mike <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Language policies" 2003.07.24 (06) [E]

Fiete wrote

> There are some things within the heads of people like them You have to
> erase- but I fear You will not succeed
> in it with any inforcement.

Of course not, Fiete. Ireland is perhaps the most outstanding
negative example. My Irish colleagues, some of them fierce
nationalists hate Irish, because it was forced down their throats.

It takes something completely different. I have pounded upon that
on every occasion, including in this forum. If I need to explain again:
No language enjoying a secondary status has any chance, in the
long run, of surviving intact. Only a primary-status language has.

The Welsh, the Corsicans, the Kanaks throw bombs to achieve that.
It´s a choice: Murder or see your language die. If you choose the latter,
you have to recognize that you are doing just that. And not put your
head in the sand.

Nix för ongaud, Fiete!

Mike Wintzer

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From: Mike <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: CORRECTION!

I just submitted to the list that the Welsh are bomb throwers.
I sincerely apologize.
What was going through my mind was a list of ethnies
who have achieved their goals without throwing bombs
(Welsh, Catalans...).
By Freudian confusion the word "Welsh" slipped into
my text in the wrong place.
My sincere apologies!
Mike Wintzer

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language survival

Thanks for your multi-installment posting above, Mike.

You wrote:

> Ron: Don´t you think that
>     SASSISCHE SCHOOL
> would carry more weight than
>     NIEDERDEUTSCHE SCHULE ?

Not at present, Mike.  The name "Saxon" has been messed around with too much
for the average person to understand.  _Schule für sächsische Sprache_ might
do it if people were "reeducated," i.e., if people learned that their
_Plattdeutsch_ is really Saxon  and that the state of Saxony got its name
undeservedly.

Personally I am opposed to using "Sassisch" in German and English.  The
German equivalent is _Sächsisch_, the English one "Saxon," and the Dutch one
_Saksisch_.  Using "Sassisch" instead sounds grating to me, much like people
saying things like "When I lived in Germany I went to an American school,
but my sister went to a Deutsch school," or (unfortunately heard often in
the in-crowd) "My grandmother was born in Ostfriesland and spoke
Ostfriesisch Platt, and I still belong to the Ostfriesisch Association in
Minnesota" (where the English words would be "Eastern Friesland" and "East
Frisian" respectively), perhaps even insulting, considering that the
*German* names are used.  I don't think that using "Sassisch" instead of
"Sächsisch" in German is a way around the dilemma of false association.
"Saxon" got a bad rap because many people don't like Saxon Germany dialects.
The only way to get onto the same page is to educate people about the
histories of the Saxons and of the area now called Saxony.

> Personnally I would like to see much more on this subject
> (language survival) in the LLlist. After all, isn´t the raison d´être
> of our group not the affection for endangered languages
> (which most LLlanguages are)? Can being occupied with these
> languages be limited to linguistic studies and for the
> rest just to witnessing as mere observers their continuing assassination ?

Mike, such postings are certainly welcome.  However, be aware that this is
no language activism list per se, that we accommodate both powerful and
powerless languages in the Lowlands family, that minority language issues
are included in a larger scope.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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