LL-L "Celtic connections" 2003.06.01 (05) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 01.JUN.2003 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: "Andy Eagle" <andy at scots-online.org>
Subject: LL-L

Uilleam wrote:

<snip>
...when the Germanic Angles, Saxons, and Jutes invaded
what is now England, the Britons (Celts of Brittonic stock) were
either
killed in 'ethnic cleansing' or fled to one of four places - Wales,
Cornwall, Lowland Scotland, or Brittany. So many fled from Britain to
Armorica,
what Brittany was called,

How much evidence is there for 'systematic' removal or extermination
of the native Brithonic population?
Was it not more a case o setlement and absorbtion. The brithonoic
population slowly but  surely adopting English.
What is interesting though is the apparent want of Brithonic
vocabulary in English.
> ... The Bretons are the descendants of refugees, not invaders.
Surely the defination could be applied to all population movements in
historical times - where they not all
economic 'refugees' seeking a better life? Or do only movements base
on competition with other populations count as 'refugees'?

Andy Eagle

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From: GaidhealdeAlba at aol.com
Subject: LL-L "Celtic connections" 2003.06.01 (02) [E]

Niels writes:

  A recent genetic survey of Y chromosomes shows that there never was
  any population replacement and
  therefore no rationale behind 'ethnic cleansing' theories.
  The early 'invasions' discussed here left only insignificant traces.
  The later invasions left some imprint, but only of local significance
in
  the
  York area and on Orkney.

Niels, I'm afraid I'll have to disagree. As does the BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/2076470.stm
"The research supports the idea that Celtic Britain underwent a form of
ethnic cleansing by Anglo-Saxons invaders following the Roman withdrawal
in the fifth century."

Beannachdan,
Uilleam Stiùbhart

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Celtic connections

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From: "thomas byro" <thbyro at earthlink.net>
Subject: LL-L "Celtic connections" 2003.06.01 (02) [E]

To Niels Winters

I am inclined to agree with you.  I don't think that an ethnic cleansing
of the Keltic population took place. I remember reading an article on
Anglo-Saxon law one time, which stated that a different weight was given
to the testimony of a Saxon as opposed to the testimony of a Kelt.
Clearly large numbers of Kelts must have continued living among the
Anglo-Saxons, otherwise such a legal stipulation would have been
unneccessary.  I suspect that one result of the Norman conquest was the
removal of legal discriminations against the Kelts, leading to a greater
rate of intermarriage and a fusion of languages, and that this is why
English changed so much following the Norman conquest.

Tom Byro

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Celtic connections

I keep wondering if allegations of ethnocide are often largely based
upon misinterpretations of historical records, namely upon interpreting
reports of "destruction" or "annihilation" as wholesale murder when they
are really referring to destruction of a nation's or tribe's leadership,
infrastructure, religion and culture (and language).  Surely, lots of
people died in the process, both warriors and civilians, but the rest of
the population, particularly females, came to be part of the victorious
nation's population.  This can be observed in many parts of the world
where official histories and oral traditions talk about having wiped out
the enemy but anthropoligical and linguistic evidence, and more recently
DNA evidence, points toward merging/absorption instead.  It must also be
borne in mind that until the advent of modern means of communication and
administration and until the invention of actual weapons of mass
destruction, destroying an entire nation was virtually impossible.

I have always assumed that historical reports must be taken with a grain
or more of salt.  We must remember that written and oral histories
tended to be composed by the victors, their allies or their lackies and
vanquished, primarily for the purpose of glorifying the victorious
rulers, which called for some embellishment and dramatization.  (Why,
this is still going on these days, though most people are not aware of
it.)  While I do not discount such historical sources, I feel more
inclined to trust scientific investigations, such as DNA studies, with
historical records for contextualization.  This is not to come across as
"anti-Celtic" and "pro-Germanic," or to minimize past atrocities, of
which I am sure there were plenty, destruction of religion, culture and
language being part of this.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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