LL-L "Phonology" 2003.06.04 (07) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 04.JUN.2003 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * sassisch at yahoo.com
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm
Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Hi everyone

thought I'd add my contribution to the 'r'
pronunciations. My own pronunciation of it has changed
due to outside pressure. I originally pronounced it as
a labio-dental approximant (similar to a German's
pronunciation of 'w') this had the affect of sounding
a bit like a v or w - but not quite either. It never
used to be a problem for anyone living in my area, but
we occassionally had teachers from other parts of the
country who had problems understanding my name,
thinking I'd said Gavin. I read in 'Accents of
English' by J.C.Wells that this is also a marker of
Jewish London English - possibly from pronunciations
taken over from Yiddish? Coming from Northeast London,
with parents, grandparents etc that have always lived
in the Eastend I'm sure that somewhere along the line
this Jewish pronunciation has affected my area's
pronunciation.

However having been away from the area for a long time
and having taught English as well, I've managed to
change my pronunciation so that it's nearer the
standard English, but I'm sure I slip up
occassionally.

Gary

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject:  Phonology

Gary,

I suppose you are referring to what many hear as "w" for /r/, something
I've heard a lot in England and Australia, also in American English
varieties of some children.

Another interesting phenomenon is [v] for <th> as in "then" and "bathe",
and [f] for <th> as in "think" and "bath."  (Incidentally, this is how
Russian delt with Greek /T/ ("theta"), as in _Theodoros_ > _Fjodor_ and
_Bartholomei_ > _Varfolomej_.)

Cheers!
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Ruud Harmsen <rh at rudhar.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2003.06.04 (05) [E]

11:04 AM 6/4/2003 -0700, R. F. Hahn:
From: "Jim Rader" <jrader at Merriam-Webster.com>

>I notice that many (most?) Dutch speakers from
>the Randstand area, whether they use a uvular or alveolar /r/ initially
>and medially, have a peculiar sound word-finally that is quite close to
>American English /r/.

True. And it is becoming more popular and more similar to an
American r, being retroflex. As you say, it is often combined with a
- very un-American - uvular r in other positions, so I doubt it is
due to American influence.
Older people too (in the Randstad and elsewhere, but not
everywhere), who don't use such a retroflex r, do use a shwa- or [3]
like sound for r in these final and pre-consonantal positions. The
same positions, BTW, where non-rhotic English has nothing or a
lengthened vowel, and where High-German also too often has a
shwa-like semi-consonant or approximant. So perhaps there is a
historic connection at work here.

>Has uvular /r/ penetrated West Frisian or Low German dialects?

Some Low-German (Low-Saxon) speaker in the Netherlands use it, many
do not.

>Or do
>they maintain an alveolar trill or tap?  What about Dutch dialects in
>Belgium?

Don't know about dialects, but in the spoken standard language in
Belgium, both the apical and the uvular kinds exist. There are
regional and personal variations. It is about as complicated as in
the Netherlands.
I do think that in Belgium, most speakers use the same r in all
positions, so don't have the approximant semi-vowels in final or
preconsonantal position we hear in the Netherlands.
--
Ruud Harmsen  http://rudhar.com/index/whatsnew.htm  3 June 2003

----------

From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject:  LL-L "Phonology" 2003.06.04 (05) [E]

A chairde,

Gavin wrote:
"At the risk of bringing down the standard of debate and being awfully
obscure for those without access to the BBC, I think an example would be
Wally Batty, the husband of Nora in 'Last of
the Summer Wine', who tends to say his wife's name with a uvular /r/. As
far as I can make out, it seems regionally
limited to parts of the north of England and even then more of a
regionally limited speech defect than a dialectal feature."

I know the sound Gavin is describing, but it doesn't sound like an
uvular 'French' /r/ to me - it sounds more like a
rhoticism collapsing into a /v/. Kind of [rv]. I've observed the same
sort of sound in certain variants of Nottingham
English. I think it comes about in variants that lack even a rhoticism
(an /r/ glide instead of an actual /r/ - very common in
England)... the speaker uses a /v/ to realise the vibration of the
attempted but failed /r/.

Come to think of it: why are r-sounds so weak in most England English
variants? (Particularly given that this r-weakness
has not been exported to descendant variants such as American,
Australian and New Zealand.)

Go raibh maith agaibh

Criostóir.

----------

From: GaidhealdeAlba at aol.com
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2003.06.04 (03) [E]

Ron, earlier today on the radio I was listing to NPR. It was airing a
clip of the House of Commons' Question Time with
the Prime Minister. I could have sworn one of the ministers was speaking
with a uvular r! I thought he was a French
immigrant the whole time, but who knows? Interesting.

And as for the French-Canadians, as far as I know of they speak an older
sort of French, along with the Acadians. It's
a sort of mixed uvular and apical r. I'm not sure when the distinction
is made, if at all, but I know that there is a sort of
'the French speak French better than us, let's be like them' attitude;
that is, the French r is becoming more common.

Beannachdan,
Uilleam Stiùbhart

================================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================