LL-L "Names" 2003.03.13 (04) [E/LS]
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Friedrich-Wilhelm Neumann <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2003.03.12 (03) [E/LS]
(English below)
Beste Reynhard, verdreihte Knebel,
Du schreevst::
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Names
>
> [English below]
> > Wii, in uns plattdüütsche Meenschapp, sünnt uns eeinig wonnen,
Oortsnoomen
> > jümmers opp de offizielle hauchdüütsche Leesoort tau snacken un' tau
> > schriiven.
>
> Ja, worüm den dat? Ook wen ’t vör ’n ourd in dey mundaard vun syn rebeyd
’n
> eygenen naam givt? Ik ga altyd daar na, wou dey lüyd’ dat in jüm eer
> mundaard segt, t.b. in Düytschland, Maideborch ~ Meideborg (Magdeburg),
> Branneborg ~ Bramborg (Brandenburg), Bardörp (Bergedorf), Buxtu ~ Buxtuud’
> (Buxtehude), Staad’ ~ Staa ~ Stoo (Stade), Demorst (Delmenhorst), Düörpm
> (Dortmund), Ossenbrügge (Osnabrück), Hilmssen (Hildesheim), Paderbuorne
> (Paderborn), un in de Nedderlannen Dreante (Drenthe), Berkoop
(Oldeberkoop),
> Grunnen ~ Grönnen (Groningen), Tweante (Twente), Deaventer (Deventer) un
> Oaveriessel (Overijssel). Wen ’t in dey lokaalspraak ’n naam geven dayt,
> wourüm em den up „Hoog“-Düytsch (or Hollandsch), d.h. frömd, seggen un
> schryven wen Jy in ’t land syn eyene spraak snakt or schryvt?! Dat lett
my
> heyl snaaksch, höyr! Hebt Jy lüyd’ Ju totaal slaan geven, dat Jy nu ook
use
> naams „geel“ segt un schryvt?
>
> Na klaar, kan ’n gissen, man „offitschel“ verschuven un eygene „platte“
> naams maken, ney, dat gayt nich. Daar gifft ’t listen un kaarten mit dey
> lokaalnaams vör. Och, ik hev mayst vergeten, dat Du keyn wöyrböyker
bruken
> daist, tominnst keyn etymologischen. Dayt dat ook vör naamslisten un
> kaarten gellen?
Nee, slaan geven hevvt wi u's ne, mann hefft wi begreepen, watt dat Bruuken
von plattdüütsche Oordsnoomen 'n heel kompelzeert Sook is un tau 'n
Konfusion waar'n kann.
Meihr Biespeeln:
(UG) "Oldendorf" un (UG) "Altendorf" liggt bii 'n 20 Kilometern uutenein.
Snackst Du von (LS) "Aulendöörp", schall woll keein Deubel weeiten, welk'
Döörp Du in Oogenblick meenen deihst. Du mutt 'st dat woll recht ümständlich
verkloorn; offitschielle Beteiknung'n sünd beeter.
> Buxtu ~ Buxtuud’
> (Buxtehude), Staad’ ~ Staa ~ Stoo (Stade),
Miin scheune Jung ;-), dat is ne Platt, datt is SLANG, wenn einen de letzten
Taalen weg looten deiht.
Or- wenn einen uut (UG) "Hechthausen" in LS "Heegdhuusen" mooken deiht; dat
eine Woord koomt vonne Hööcht, un' dat annere von'n Fisch.
Watt mookt dat föör 'n Sinn, wenn dat offitschielle (LS) "Uhlenkamp" tau
(UG) "Eulenkamp" waard- meent wöör to freuhern Tiiden sachs (LS)
"Aulenkamp", (UG) "Altes Feld".
Verkloor Du man mool 'n Frünn 'n uut Heide (Dithmarschen/SH), hei schall Dii
in "Beerst" droopen. Dat schall hei woll amend ne finnen!
<Och, ik hev mayst vergeten, dat Du keyn wöyrböyker bruken
> daist, tominnst keyn etymologischen. Dayt dat ook vör naamslisten un
> kaarten gellen?
"Ganz 'n Gries 'n" waarst Du nu' ;-), schallst Dii woll höögen!
Mann- door hesst' mi woll foot!
Noomensböökers truu ick ook amend ne, or deihst Du ein Enkeldet kennen, opp
dat 'n Oord von Verloot is? Gifft as Sand anne Strand, dennen Schiet!
Landkoorden kannst ook Spoos mitt hebben. In de Tiiden vöör de "Wende" in
Düütschland haar de STASI in de DDR verkeihrte Strooten inteikent, de geev
datt heel gonne!
Mann- ick mutt taudauhn, watt ick mittünner bii 'n Autofööhrn ook in
SHELL-Atlas kieken dauh!
Beste Kumpelmenten, ook anners watt föör:
Fiete.
****
Dear Ron, "verdreihte Knebel" (absolutely untranslatetably, even impossible
for me to try it into UG),
You wrote:
> > In our LS-memberhood we concluded ALWAYS to use the official [UG]
location
> > names, speaking and writing.
>
> Why on earth would you do that?! Do you do so even if there is a Lowlands
> Saxon (Low German) name for a place in the area’s own dialect? I always
use
> the names people use in their dialects, e.g., in Germany Maideborch ~
> Meideborg (Magdeburg), Branneborg ~ Bramborg (Brandenburg), Bardörp
> (Bergedorf), Buxtu ~ Buxtuud’ (Buxtehude), Staad’ ~ Staa ~ Stoo (Stade),
> Demorst (Delmenhorst), Düörpm (Dortmund), Ossenbrügge (Osnabrück),
Hilmssen
> (Hildesheim), Paderbuorne (Paderborn), and in the Netherlands Dreante
> (Drenthe), Berkoop (Oldeberkoop), Grunnen ~ Grönnen (Groningen), Tweante
> (Twente), Deaventer (Deventer) un Oaveriessel (Overijssel). If a local
> language has a name for its own places and you use that language, why use
> the “High” German (or Dutch) forms, namely foreign forms? That seems
> totally weird to me! Have you guys totally capitulated to the power
> languages?
>
> Of course one can take guesses, and of course one shouldn’t make such
> guesses official. That’s what we have lists and maps for. Oops! I
nearly
> forgot that you shun dictionaries (at least etymological ones). Does this
> also go for name lists and maps?
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron
No- we didn't capitulate, but we realised, that the use of LS-names for
locations is a difficile matter, leading to confusion sometimes.
More examples:
(UG) "Oldendorf" and (UG) "Altendorf" are separated by just 20 km. If You
name them into (LS) "Aulendörp" there 's no devil to find out which of those
two villages You are talking about. You have to give long and vasting
explanations; the official names are better!
> Buxtu ~ Buxtuud’
> (Buxtehude), Staad’ ~ Staa ~ Stoo (Stade),
["Miin scheune Jung" = (E) "my pretty boy"; untranslatetably also, meaning
(perhaps) something like "Good boy...???"], that's no LS at all, it's just
SLANG! to cut off the last letters! Or, if someone makes (UG) "Hechthausen"
to (LS) "Heeigdhuusen, (E) "pike village"- the one thing is depending on
(LS) "Hööcht", (UG) "Höhe", (E) "heighth", the other one on a fish!
Where to find any sense making the official (LS) "Uhlenkamp" to (UG)
"Eulenfeld"- in origin it was the (LS) "Aulenkamp", (UG) "Altes Feld", (E)
"Oldfield".
Try to explain a friend, coming from the town of Heide, Dithmarschen,
Province of Schleswig-Holstein, he shall meet with You in (LS) "Beerst". Hi
never will find!
<Oops! I nearly
<forgot that you shun dictionaries (at least etymological ones). Does this
<also go for name lists and maps?
["Ganz'n Griesen.."- again untranslatetably for me, verbal: (E) "Complete
gray man.." in the meaning of unvisible, un*per*visible].., as You are
growing upt to at the moment, You're starting to do Your jokes with me
;-),
indeed- I do not trust name lists at all, or do You really know just one of
them to rely on? There are as many of them like "sand at the beach".
You also can have some fun with site maps. In those times before the
"glasnost-change" in Germany the STASI in the GDR would draw non-existent
roads into some maps.
But- as I have to confess- sometimes even I need a SHELL-Atlas when driving
a car!
Very best an friendly regards!
Fiete.
----------
From: Friedrich-Wilhelm Neumann <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2003.03.13 (01) [LS]
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Names
>
> Fiete:
> "Dul"?! Wourüm nich? Tjer, dat bün ik den wul, wen dat "up d'n planeet
Eyrd'
> leven" bedüyt, un daar höyr ik sachs tou the meyrhait. Ik dach, düt is dat
> jaar 2003 (veyr jaar na dat offytschelle gellenlaten vun "Niederdeutsch"
in
> dey acht Noorddüytschen länner un in dey EU). Ik dach ook, dey minschen
> verstaat middewyl, wat dat bedüydt: "devide and conquer" ("divide et
impera"
> vör Ju Latynschen), un dat in düsse val "conquer" ("impera") dat sülve as
> "doud maken" bedüyden dayt.
>
> Kumpelmenten,
>
> Reinhard/Ron
Leeve Reynhart,
fang ne dat "fleem'n" an, anners waarst Du ruutsmeeten ;-) ;-)!!!
Door givvt 'n poor Dussels, de hefft no' gonnix begreepen, un' dat schall
woll sau blieven, föör all Tiiden.
Mann- hesst recht: door steiht 'n heel Bült oppe Wacht föör u's minschlich'
Evolutschion!
Ick heff jümmers noch Hööp, watt dat aalln 's gaut affgeiht.
Dank Dii föör Diin Kurroosch!
't allerbest, Kumpelment!
Fiete.
----------
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names
[English (sort of) below]
Fiete schreyv’:
> Beste Reynhard, verdreihte Knebel,
Nu pass man maal up! Anners kaam ik Dy maal heyl anners un stöyt Dy vun
wegen de regeln an. Nich vergeten, ’keyn hyr dat stuyr in dey hannen höldt!
> Nee, slaan geven hevvt wi u's ne, mann hefft wi begreepen, watt dat
Bruuken
> von plattdüütsche Oordsnoomen 'n heel kompelzeert Sook is un tau 'n
> Konfusion waar'n kann.
Den neem ik an, dat is ’n val vun “Daar laatt wy daar maal heyl un deyl dey
hannen vun af un dout ’t geel, as of ’t dat problem nich givt.” Tjer, ik
weet nich ... dat höyrt sik meyr or min na upgeven an.
> Watt mookt dat föör 'n Sinn, wenn dat offitschielle (LS) "Uhlenkamp" tau
> (UG) "Eulenkamp" waard- meent wöör to freuhern Tiiden sachs (LS)
> "Aulenkamp", (UG) "Altes Feld".
Weetst Du dat vör wiss, or is dat wedder ’n gissen?
> Verkloor Du man mool 'n Frünn 'n uut Heide (Dithmarschen/SH), hei schall
Dii
> in "Beerst" droopen. Dat schall hei woll amend ne finnen!
Den mutt hey schynts wat touleyren. Per osmoos’ gait ’t nich. Wen hey gele
naams bruukt, den schul hey glyks by ’t geel-snakken blyven.
> "Ganz 'n Gries 'n" waarst Du nu' ;-), schallst Dii woll höögen!
Ja, so ’n lüt beten grys ward’ ik nu ook so üm ’t dünhaar rüm.
> Noomensböökers truu ick ook amend ne, or deihst Du ein Enkeldet kennen,
opp
> dat 'n Oord von Verloot is? Gifft as Sand anne Strand, dennen Schiet!
>
> Landkoorden kannst ook Spoos mitt hebben. In de Tiiden vöör de "Wende" in
> Düütschland haar de STASI in de DDR verkeihrte Strooten inteikent, de
geev
> datt heel gonne!
Un daarwegen dout un truut wy den gaarniks, sitt rüm un klaagt: “Up niks is
verlaat!”?
So, mit annere wöyrd’ segst den schynts, dat up niks verlaat is, wat tou vör
künnig maakt un upschreven wöyrd’, dat wy elk maal dat rad upney ervinnen
möött, or dat wy in eynsen tou gissen un aan kaard rümkarjolen un höpen
möött, dat wy nich vun d’n dyk valt.
> fang ne dat "fleem'n" an, anners waarst Du ruutsmeeten ;-) ;-)!!!
Wen Du anvangst tou “beten” (bait), den krigst vun my “flemen” (ook “phlegm”
schreven).
> Ick heff jümmers noch Hööp, watt dat aalln 's gaut affgeiht.
Den hest schynt noch nich heyl un deyl upgeven.
> Dank Dii föör Diin Kurroosch!
In düt belang hev ik wul noug kraasch vör Dy un my!
Ga Dy dat goud! Un nich vergeten: över dey kim kyken, nicht achter d’n aven
sitten!
Gröytens,
Reinhard/Ron
***
Fiete wrote:
> Dear Ron, "verdreihte Knebel" (absolutely untranslatetably, even
impossible
> for me to try it into UG),
Watch it, or I’ll remind you of the rules! Don’t forget who’s holding the
paddle here!
> No- we didn't capitulate, but we realised, that the use of LS-names for
> locations is a difficile matter, leading to confusion sometimes.
I assume then it’s a case of “Keep away from it and resort to “High” German”
instead, pretending there’s no problem.” I dunno ... Sounds like
capitulation to *me*.
> Where to find any sense making the official (LS) "Uhlenkamp" to (UG)
> "Eulenfeld"- in origin it was the (LS) "Aulenkamp", (UG) "Altes Feld", (E)
> "Oldfield".
Do you know this for sure, or is this another guess?
> Try to explain a friend, coming from the town of Heide, Dithmarschen,
> Province of Schleswig-Holstein, he shall meet with You in (LS) "Beerst".
Hi
> never will find!
I suppose then he has a bit of learning to do. Knowledge of language and
names isn’t acquired by osmosis, and guessing is at best unreliable.
> ["Ganz'n Griesen.."- again untranslatetably for me, verbal: (E) "Complete
> gray man..
I suppose a bit of gray is showing around the temples.
> indeed- I do not trust name lists at all, or do You really know just one
of
> them to rely on? There are as many of them like "sand at the beach".
>
> You also can have some fun with site maps. In those times before the
> "glasnost-change" in Germany the STASI in the GDR would draw non-existent
> roads into some maps.
And so we do and trust nothing, sit around and moan, “You can’t rely on
anything!”?
So, in other words you seem to be saying that nothing can be trusted that
has been done and recorded before, that every time we’ll need to reinvent
the
wheel, or that we should just keep taking wild stabs at things and careen
about without a map, hoping we don’t fall in the ditch.
Happy careening!
Reinhard/Ron
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