LL-L "Language policies" 2003.11.17 (05) [E]

Tue Nov 18 00:11:52 UTC 2003

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From: camp <camp at gwu.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Language policies" 2003.11.17 (03) [E]

>From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
>Subject: language education
>
>Isn't there a significant shift in language education policy between
>West-European continental countries and Anglo-Saxon countries. I always
have
>been wondering why learning Spanish thoroughly is not mandatory for kids
all
>in Texas and in California.

My name is Gregory Camp; I'm a freshman in college in Washington DC. This is
my first time
attempting to post, so I hope I do it correctly. This subject of language
education is of great
interest to me, as I study German, French, and Italian. I started French in
6th grade, German in 9th,
and Italian this year. At my high-school in Colorado, a foreign language was
not required, though
my school had a very strong foreign language program. It offered, in order
of
the number of
students taking the language, Spanish, French, German, Russian, Chinese, and
Latin.

The first three of these languages are offered in nearly every high school
in
Colorado, and not
many high schools require a language, which is a pity. Ironically, it is
generally the middle schools
that require a language. Mine offered Spanish, French, and German (though
German was, alas,
recently cut due to lack of interest). There is obviously a sizable Hispanic
community in Colorado,
but there are relatively few monolinguals; most speak at least enough
English
to get by. There is
quite a strong German community in Denver, though it is more southern German
than Lowlands.
We have an Oktoberfest and a Christkindlmarkt downtown each year.

Luckily, my parents encouraged me to learn languages even though they only
speak English, and I had excellent teachers. I try to get my friends to join
me in these linguistic pursuits, but most kids are just not interested.
They, along with some school administrators, tend to think that languages
are a difficult waste of time, not realizing that one cannot truly
understand a culture unless one knows the language.

Gregory Camp
camp at gwu.edu

----------

From: Mike <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Language policies" 2003.11.17 (03) [E]

Hi Lowlanders,

Roger Thijs, quoting the Guardian,
(Lucy Ward quoting Barry Sheerman) writes:

"He believed there was scope to reform language teaching,..."

WHEN WILL THIS FINALLY SINK IN???

My own experience, and that of countless others, I have talked to, in
Germany, Britain, France, Holland, The States... tells me that language
teaching in conventional children´s schools is for the birds, literally.
And that languages can be learned only by total immersion, preferably
starting in kindergarten.
I know there are many university-trained linguist among us, but I cannot
avoid adding that,
for immersing children in a foreign lauguage linguists are not the right
people, certainly
not at kindergarten level.
I fear that language teaching in children´s school still has a long way to
go.
Who agrees/disagrees?
Greetings, Mike Wintzer

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language policies

Folks,

In case you are wondering, I deliberately categorize this discussion thread
under "Language policies," because it cannot really be separated out, and
language teaching policies (if any) tend to reflect attitudes and explain
policies on a larger scale.

Gregory, thanks a lot for your posting debut (above).  It's great to hear
from you, and I encourage you to keep on posting.  Congratulations!  Your
submission was faultless.  So keep on going!

> Luckily, my parents encouraged me to learn languages even though they only
> speak English,

Again I congratulate you.  Your parents have exceptional foresight in that
they encourage you to work toward gaining experiences and thus wisdom by way
of "looking across fences."  Regards and compliments to them.  I wish the
majority of American parents were like yours.

> I try to get my friends to join me in these linguistic pursuits, but most
kids are
> just not interested. They, along with some school administrators, tend to
think
> that languages are a difficult waste of time, not realizing that one
cannot truly
> understand a culture unless one knows the language.

Well, perhaps they don't *want* to understand a culture other than their
own.  I believe that this is the case with most people, not only Americans.
Getting to know people and their thoughts and cultures outside ones own
country or group is not only challenging with regard to having to work at it
and to open one's mind, but it also potentially threatens one's own beliefs,
most importantly the belief that there is only one correct, good way of life
and thinking, namely one's own.  As I said earlier today:

> 2) Most people in the world are afraid of learning foreign languages.
This
> is particularly so among adults, and they tend to project this fear onto
> their children and instill it in their children's attitudes.  There are
> numerous misconceptions, including the one that it is very difficult and
> requires exceptional intelligence.  So there is this fear factor that
> requires all sorts of excuses and probably feeds into policies as well.  I
> furthermore suspect that one of the fears that feeds into this is that of
> being confronted with foreign, thus alternative, cultures and thoughts,
> something that might put into question the status quo based upon the
> unquestioned values with which one grew up -- in other words, fear of
being
> made to look through a window into another, supposedly scary world that
> challenges one's philosophy.

Gregory, you have chosen to be adventurous enough to look across fences.
Good for you.  You can always find fellow "language geeks."  Well, you are
in suitable company right here.  So, welcome!

Mike (above):

> I fear that language teaching in children´s school still has a long way to
go.
> Who agrees/disagrees?

Sure I agree.  But, with all due respect, I do not agree with the rest,
Mike.

Yes, language teaching can do with improvements.  How could it not?  Yes,
immersion is great if it can be pulled off.  No arguments there.

Bear in mind that language teaching in Europe, North America, Australia and
New Zealand, and in elite schools also in China, has improved vastly over
the past few decades.  For example, pre-tertiary German students' command of
English is far superior to that of those in the 1960s and 1970s.  So it's
not as though no progress has been made.  Also, I have spoken with British
high school students and found their command of German, French and Russian
very impressive.  In Australia I tutored some people who had German in high
school and wished to advance.  I was surprised how high the level was at
which I "inherited" them.

> My own experience, and that of countless others, I have talked to, in
Germany, Britain,
> France, Holland, The States... tells me that language teaching in
conventional children´s
> schools is for the birds, literally.
> And that languages can be learned only by total immersion, preferably
starting in
> kindergarten.
> I know there are many university-trained linguist among us, but I cannot
avoid adding
> that, for immersing children in a foreign lauguage linguists are not the
right people,
> certainly not at kindergarten level.
> I fear that language teaching in children´s school still has a long way to
go.
> Who agrees/disagrees?

As I said, I agree with you in principle.  However, I hear you saying that
you favor an all-or-nothing approach, that, before universal foreign
language teaching is even mandated and implemented, you are already talking
about pie-in-the-sky ideals that at this stage may not be possible or may be
difficult to implement.  This, with pronouncements like "language teaching
in conventional children´s schools is for the birds, literally," can only
serve to discourage and undermine, pulling the rug out from under one's
feet.  They beg for reactions like "Well, we don't have the resources for
immersion teaching, and they say everything else is a waste of time; so
let's just scrap the whole idea."  This would come in as a very handy excuse
for those who are opposed to language teaching, bilingual educations and the
like in the first place.  Implementing a favorable education policy should
be step number one.  Deciding what sort of teaching is preferable and
feasible would be step number two.

All right, so let's say a school district doesn't have the resources for
immersion teaching, does not feel discouraged by remarks such as yours, and
goes ahead with a modest conventional-type program as a start, making sure,
though, that teaching techniques are as high as they can be under the
circumstances (which includes safeguards against turning children off
language studies).   So the kids won't be fluent in a given foreign
language, can say a few things and can read and write simple texts.  Is it
really fair and justified to say it was a waste of effort and time?  I most
definitely think not.  At the very least those young people will have gotten
a taste of what it is like to learn, understand, speak, read and write
another language, will have gained confidence and hopefully eagerness in
doing so in the future.  At the end of the day they will have been given a
glimpse at another world through another communication medium, and they will
have come away from it with the awareness that there is much more of it out
there for them to explore if they so choose, ability not being a serious
consideration.

Cheers!
Reinhard/Ron

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