LL-L "Orthography" 2003.10.04 (04) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 05.OCT.2003 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Andy (Scots-Online) <andy at scots-online.org>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2003.10.04 (02) [E]

Gary Taylor wrote:
>
> Hi guys
>
> a lot of you have spoken about finding a standard
> writing system for Low Saxon and Scots - and indeed
> North Frisian could fit into this category. There are
> enough speakers of these languages out there on this
> list. Why don't you try and work something out between
> you. A start would be to make a list of the different
> phonemes (sounds) in your own dialect with plenty of
> examples for each and then comparing the differences
> with other speakers.

I have done such and a exercise for Scots. Of course there’s dialects (or
where dialects goes over into another) where differences is often hard to
predict or my know of the subject is wanting.

Look to it at http://www.scots-online.org/grammar/pronunci.htm#cairt

You can click on the map or the list below an see examplars of  (the main
phonetic makes of) differing dialects showing how the self same othography
might can represent differing predictable pronunciations founded on the
graphemes used. This is not my ‚invention’ but founded on what’s gone
before.

<snip>

R. F. Hahn wrote:

<snip>
>
> Opponents may argue that this type of orthographic differentiation would
> amount to some dialects burdening the speakers of other dialects with
> written differences that do not exist in the phonologies of the latter.
> This is where it becomes politically interesting, in my opinion.  What do
> our Lowlanders think about it?  Should differentiation be dictated even
> where it exists only in a minority of dialects?  Or should it be played as
a
> numbers game?  Remember that orthographic non-differentiation is likely to
> lead to generalized phonemic non-differentiation.

Would not this just have the offcome that differing graphemes that might
coud  be pronounced the same way in some dialects be different in others.
The offcome  might could be an orthography where there’s no longer a ‚one
pronunciation - one grapheme’ correspondence  but all the same if these
differences is predictable and not over many, surely they would be
teachable/learnable. I have the impression most standardised orthographies
functions in a similar way. You raise some matters of concern regarding this
and all, but in so doing you address the possibilities of redressing it in a
pragmatic manner. But then again Ron you have always mentioned thinking
outside the box’ (or something such like).

Andy

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From: Mike <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2003.10.04 (06) [E/LS/German]

Ron wrote:

Opponents may argue that this type of orthographic differentiation would
amount to some dialects burdening the speakers of other dialects with
written differences that do not exist in the phonologies of the latter.
This is where it becomes politically interesting, in my opinion.  What do
our Lowlanders think about it?  Should differentiation be dictated even
where it exists only in a minority of dialects?  Or should it be played as
a numbers game?  Remember that orthographic non-differentiation is likely to
lead to generalized phonemic non-differentiation.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

Here comes one ballot, Ron

Although being far removed from my mother tongue,
chronologically, geographically and linguistically,
it still upset me when you proposed to write "dood"
and "doun" with the same vouwel letters.
I still strongly feel the difference in pronouniation.
But then you are right, what about the others?
There I can only judge by (again,sorry) what
is going in Occità nia. The etymological orthography
leads to many cases of distinct spelling where in some,
most (or even all) dialects the distinction in pronounciation
has disappeared. (What about English orthography?
Is it upsetting once it has been learned?)

Greetings, Mike Wintzer

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From: Dan Ryan-Prohaska <daniel at ryan-prohaska.com>
Subject: phonology/orthography

Gary,

I agree with you on the Low Saxon and English issues. Finding a common
orthography for North Frisian may prove to be quite difficult. Whereas
Low Saxon forms a dialect continuum of relative homogeneity and a high
degree of mutual comprehension over a wide area, this is not the case
where North Frisian is concerned. Both dialectal diversity as well as
lack of a written form (until recently), and lack of usage for anything
but the local gives North Frisian the appearance of a set of closely
related languages with a similar development rather than a dialect
continuum.

I think an achievement has been made in finding a systematic approach to
representing the various mainland dialects. The island dialects are both
different from the mainland as well as from each other. Many of the
dialects have undergone separate developments from as early as the 8th
century, the rift being particularly niticeable between mainaland and
island varieties. The only truly unifying factors are in the common
influence from Danish and Low Saxon (High German nowadays) and a number
of older common features also shared by other Frisian varieties.

An approach similar to standardisation efforts shown in the
Rhaeto-Romance area might be transferable to the North Frisian
situation. Lexical and phonemic distribution being decided upon by a
'majority vote'.

The other possibility would be to find an etymological solution similar
to modern Faeroese - Something approaching an older stage of the
language. This would remove the written language very far from the
spoken word. I would applaud anyone who would come up with such a
system, but I fear the North Frisian dialects are simply too divers to
be represented by a single orthography.

Dan

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Dan, I am pretty much with you re North Frisian orthography.

The Continental North Frisian varieties already use the same orthographic
devices now, even though they don't write etymologically.  Continental North
Frisian texts have fairly high mutual comprehensibility among them, also the
way they are written these days.  Besides, the Mooring dialect has taken a
place as a quasi-standard or representative dialect on the mainland of
Northern Friesland.

As for the Insular North Frisian varieties, their speakers, whose ancestors
moved to the region about two centuries before the ancestors of the
Continentals did, have never, at least not generally and not until the very
recent past, considered themselves and their language varieties part of a
Frisian whole, not even related to the Continentals right across from them,
whom they call "Frisians" (unlike themselves).

Several people have made a case for thinking of Frisian as a *language*
group, in which Westerlauwer Frisian, East Frisian (Sater Frisian),
Continental North Frisian, Heligoland North Frisian, Öömrang/Feering North
Frisian and Sölring (Sylt) North Frisian are considered separate albeit
closely related languages.  This ought not necessarily mean that there
should not be an effort to facilitate reading comprehension among them.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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