LL-L "Language varieties" 2003.10.31 (01) [E]

Fri Oct 31 16:01:08 UTC 2003

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L O W L A N D S - L * 31.OCT.2003 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2003.10.29 (06) [E]

> From: CrÃostÃ³ir Ã" Ciardha
> <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2003.10.29 (02)
> [E]
> Ron,
>
> You might like to know that on a recent visit to the
> Netherlands, one of my
> Dutch friends referred to the people of Groningen
> and Stellingwerf as
> 'Saxons', so the message seems to be getting
> through.
--------------------
Hi,

Then -I guess- he must have been 'an academic'.

vr.gr.
Theo Homan

----------

From: Heinrich Becker <Heinrich.Becker at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2003.10.29 (06) [E]

> From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2003.10.29 (02) [E]
>
> Ron,
>
> You might like to know that on a recent visit to the Netherlands, one of
> my
> Dutch friends referred to the people of Groningen and Stellingwerf as
> 'Saxons', so the message seems to be getting through.
>
> Criostóir.
>
> ----------
>
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language varieties
>
> Críostóir,
>
> I don't think prejudices* against Saxony's dialects of German ever reached
> the Netherlands.  So this emotional hangup about "Saxon" has not been an
> issue in that country, and, as far as I know, the people in the
> Netherlands
> in this context use "Saxon" (_Saksisch_) with regard to descent from Old
> Saxon.  They seem to have done so for a long time, formerly referring to
> the
> Lowlands Saxon dialects of the Netherlands as "Saxon dialects of Dutch."
>
> * These West German prejudices are purely emotionally based, a combination
> of finding the centralized vowels (which are unique within German) "ugly,"
> exacerbated by the " Saxon-colored" "High German" pronunciation
> (_sächseln_)
> of Walter Ulbricht and other despised "Saxon" politians and functionaries
> of
> former East Germany.  I can do a fairly convincing "Saxon accent" (in part
> thanks to long-time exposure to a long-time "Saxon" girlfriend) and have
> been known to put it on just to aggrevate the heck out of certain
> chauvinist
> West Germans and to study their reactions and their attempts at hiding
> their
> disgust.  (Who said I was *always* nice?  At least I can say that I have
> *never* divided language varieties up into "beautiful" and "ugly.")
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

Hello Reinhard and all,

according to these reasonable conclusions about the - in German ears - very
special pronounciation of Saxonian dialect, we are supposed to give in or
not, that this dialect is the base of nowadays High German. A special
developed
language of that time in the upper class of Saxony was the "Meissener
Kanzleideutsch" which Luther used for translating the bible into a common
German: at
first "Lutherdeutsch" later called "High German".

Didn't we talk recently very much about equalizing different dialects into a
written language. Luther gave an example that prevailed.

Written in memory of Luther on 31st of October " Day of Reformation "  (in
1517).

Regards
Heinrich Becker

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Thanks, Heinrich.

What is also "funny" about this is that this name, _Meissener
Kanzleideutsch_ ("Meissen German for Official Use," based on the "Saxon"
German dialect of the city of Meissen (of chinaware fame)), later became
Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _Missingsch_ (= _Missin(g)+(i)sch_) in the
north.  This name denote types of German dialects with very much noticeable
LS substrates.  These are the lowest of the low-prestige German dialects of
the north, if not of all Germany.  What apparently happened was that
speakers of the true Saxon were dangled this supposedly wonderful (nowadays
widely disliked) Meissen German in front of their noses to aspire to.
Aspire to it they did, at least in public life.  But it was a foreign
language and had "too much grammar," such as morphological distinction
between dative and accusative (which Modern LS, like Dutch, does not have).
The results were dialects with only thin German veneer and mostly LS
structure.  As LS faded in the large cities of the north, Missingsch became
the native language of the descendants of LS speakers as well as of
desendants of lower-class immigrants that settled in those cities.  Hamburg
Missingsch (which I can speak) is quite (in-)famous, as is working-class
Berlin German, which is really also a type of Missingsch (based on now
extinct Brandenburg dialects of LS).

For a sample of Hamburg Missingsch, please see our story about the wren:
http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/low-saxon/ls-story.html

> Didn't we talk recently very much about equalizing different dialects into
a
> written language. Luther gave an example that prevailed.

Yes, he did that.  I have a sneaking feeling that he hoped that the same
would be done for Lowlands Saxon when he virtually commissioned, or at least
encouraged, Johannes Bugenhagen (whom Luther nicknamed "Dr. Pommer" or "Dr.
Pomeranus" because he was from Eastern Pomerania) to translate the Bible for
the Saxons (the real ones).  Unfortunately, Bugenhagen
(http://www.luther.de/en/bugenha.html, who is credited with establishing
important Protestant communities in the north, including Denmark) translated
it from Luther's German version, not from the original languages, and the
result has been criticized for being too German in tone, style and idiom.
This Bible translation had little or no influence on the development of the
language.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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