LL-L "List" 2003.09.10 (05) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 10.SEP.2003 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Andy Eagle <andy at scots-online.org>
Subject: LL-L

R. F. Hahn Wrote:

>By the way, I was just told that, apparently in print in Germany,
>someone
>has alleged that LL-L is a vehicle for Nazi propaganda (!).  I am
>waiting
>for a copy of this and will refute it if this is possible and
>worthwhile
>(i.e., not beneath me/us).  Allegations of this sort never cease to
>amaze
>me, and any of you who have been on LL-L for a while and know me
>even just a
>bit can probably imagine how this sort of ignorant accusation makes
>me feel.
>Having such a prejudice is one thing, putting it into print is in an
>entirely different league.  I have heard of such baseless
>assumptions a
>couple of times before, and each time it was from someone in
>Germany.  This
>leads me to believe that some people in Germany have not gotten very
>far in
>their personal development during the last 50-60 years, that even
>the use of
>a "technical," innocuous, universally used word like "Germanic" can
>trigger
>this sort of over-reaction.  We might be able to gauge the severity
>and the
>motivation of this latest incidence once we study the wording.
>Lowlanders,
>I hope you will shoot such baseless allegations out of the water
>should you
>ever come across them.

There are unfornutately loony lefties about who denigrade anything
they can't understand or don't agree with as 'Nazi' - now if that
ain't fascist what is? The word Germanic often sporns a knee-jerk
reaction.

Andy Eagle

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From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "List"

Hi Ron and all

just to be in defence of the Germans - I'm studying
language change amongst the Germanic dialects in
Berlin, which include all Germanic dialects -
including for example Yiddish. I find it sometimes
difficult to give an exact title to my studies.
'Germanistik' in Germany unfortunately only applies to
dialects as spoken in Germany (this also often
unfortunately ignores Low German dialects and totally
excludes North Frisian dialects). I've found that
there seems to be a lack of labels related to general
Germanic studies. I've had to enrol in the
Skandinavistik department, and choose a 'Doktor Vater'
who's from Russia in order to study what I want.

I've now been studying for a year, and as said, in
defence of Germans, I've never heard a negative
comment about what I'm studying. It's purely through
the difficulty of finding the correct department to
work in, and giving a label to my theme that I've
realised that it is a touchy subject.

If I ever heard a negative comment about my subject I
would not be surprised if it came from a German
though, but as said, I've not had any yet...

Gary

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From: Floor en Lyanne van Lamoen <f.v.lamoen at wxs.nl>
Subject: LL-L "List" 2003.09.09 (13) [E]

Dear Ron,

Ron:
> I suppose that an interest in non-power, thus mostly "regional" languages
> and cultures could be misinterpreted by the immature as "nationalistic."
> But obviously they are missing a step or two there.

There are two elements in the scope of LL-L that might make people
suspcious:

1. The interest in local and regional culture, as you already stated.
This is of course the culture of autochtones. People might think of
xenphobia when this culture of the own soil is stressed. It might seem
the opposite of "multi-cultural".

Of course we should see the local culture as one of the many ethnic
cultures, but then one that is in danger to be overwhelmed by the
ubiquitous American, European and national cultures, spread by TV e.a.

2. With your German background, perhaps you think that only "German" and
"Germanic" triggers some associations to extreme right-wingers. I am
sure that Afrikaans does so in a more recent setting, and you will be
aware of that, too.

Although these two elements do not make _me_ suspicious, I can imagine
they do so for others, who might not want to look any further. It seems
that in western cultures we still have difficuty in seeing that
everything has good and bad elements in it (in the Netherlands people
are learning to understand this by the sayings introduced by former
football/soccer player and coach Johan Cruijff "Elk voordeel heb zijn
nadeel" (Each advantage has its disadvantage) and "Elk nadeel heb zijn
voordeel") - and finding a bad element is certainly not enough to
classify the total as bad. You may try to whitewash all possible
elements of the focus of LL-L that might give people the impression that
the focus is part of the dark side of politics. On the other side, these
darker elements are there, they belong to it. Be it slave-trading,
Nazism, apartheid, these are part of the history (and even culture...)
of people in the LL-L scope.

Perhaps the best way to avoid misunderstanding is to make a little
sentence about these darker sides of our cultures in a little sentence
on the introduction page:

"The cultures of the Lowlands area carry some dark elements in it. We
are aware of these elements. They may come up as parts of discussion,
but any propaganda for these elements is refused."

A hyperlink on "dark elements" could explain which dark elements there
are:

* Interest in local culture as expression of xenophobia.
* Colonialism by countries in the Lowlands area.
* Slave trading especially by the Netherlands and Great Britain.
* Ideas of national and ethnical superiority (Nazism, apartheid, e.a.).

What do others think of this??

Anja:
> I said that oral tradition in Iceland had
> lasted at least some hundred years (from the landing there until Snorri
> wrote down the sagas). Reaction was that I was called for germanophil -
> obviously anyone who is studying anything connected with germanic culture
> and/or history is under suspect.

It is sad that the classification "Germanophil" is used as a bad word.
Someone who likes Germanic cultures. Isn't it weird that you see this
classification as that you are "under suspect"?? So many people here
call themselves "Francophiles" just because they love to go on holiday
in France, eat the French food and drink the French wines.

Kind regards,
Floor van Lamoen.

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "List" 2003.09.09 (18) [E]

Uilleam wrote:

> Like the author Eugene O'Neill said, "There is no present or future—only
the
> past, happening over and over again—now." The Germans should not be so
> ignorant.

Who, pray tell, are "the Germans"? With all respect, this generalization
doesn't sound much better to me than what it is trying to condemn.

Would you like it any better if every child in Germany were familiar with
Hitler's personal preferences today? I think not. Let us never forget what
happened, but let the horrid little man himself fade into insignificance
where he belongs.

My best guess is that Lowlands must have been mistaken for a different site
or forum with a similar name. How can anyone even find the slightest trace
of right-wing ideas here, of all places?

Gabriele Kahn

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From: Evert Mouw <post at evert.net>
Subject: LL-L "List" 2003.09.09 (13) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
> Subject: List

> None of us can claim to have reached mental nirvana.  I have to admit that
> I, too, belonging after all to the said postwar generation, have my
buttons.
> For example, I have a hard time dealing with Wagner operas, mostly because
> of the role they and some of the associated people played under the Nazis
> (aside from the fact that neither the music nor the stories appeal to me).
> However, languages and cultures don't come with this sort of baggage, as
far
> as I am aware.

Wagner created his masterworks before the Nazi's gained power. No baggage.

Politics has my special attention. I just started studying political
sciences in
The Hague, where a campus from the university of Leiden is settled.

My grandmother (mother's side) was involved in the underground movement
against the German occupation. My father, when he was 10 years old, was
rescued
by a German army doctor. My mother's family lived in western Netherlands,
while
my father lived in the easten part (Veluwe). My father told me that most
farmers
actually liked the occupation. The Nazi's paid them for their products and
much
of the Nazi ideology appealed to them.

As always, truth is in between. Some elements of Nazi ideology are
interesting
for modern politics. Regrettable, most so-called neo-Nazi's are only
interested
in the non-functional parts of their "heroes" of the past.

The German "soul" (or culture, if "soul" sounds too nazi like) can only be
healed
after it makes a distinction between greatness (the nazi's were great) and
goodness
(the nazi's were evil - or at least, many of them were), and a distinction
between
"Inhalt" and outer form. As long as Germany feels guild over it history
before 1933,
it's denying it's own existence. That is the kind of people you are dealing
with -
people who spit on their own roots, always feeling guilty over who they are,
and
of no use for any improvement.

Today, I read in the newspapers about the death of Leny Riefenstahl. She
provoced much discussion but she was a real innovator. She also made a
very good documentary about African tribes. The Germans buried one of their
best
members with guild and hatred.

Just my 2c. Maybe I will post something from time to time, but I'm quite
busy, and
LL-L is creating lots of emails to read :-) So if you want to continue this
discussion,
do it on a mailing list meant for politics. Let's continue talking languages
again!

Regards
Evert

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From: Andy Eagle <andy at scots-online.org>
Subject: LL-L

R. F. Hahn wrote:

>I suppose that an interest in non-power, thus mostly "regional"
>languages
>and cultures could be misinterpreted by the immature as
>"nationalistic."
>But obviously they are missing a step or two there.

I think these poor souls have missed more than a step or two when it
comes to the vastness of humanity and all its endevours.

>None of us can claim to have reached mental nirvana.  I have to
>admit that
>I, too, belonging after all to the said postwar generation, have my
>buttons.
>For example, I have a hard time dealing with Wagner operas, mostly
>because
>of the role they and some of the associated people played under the
>Nazis
>(aside from the fact that neither the music nor the stories appeal
>to me).
>However, languages and cultures don't come with this sort of
>baggage, as far
>as I am aware.
>
>Having said this, I hasten to admit that in the life of LL-L I have
>several
>times been approached by far(-ish) right-wing organizations of the
>Netherlands, Belgium and South Africa (so far never of Germany,
>Britain or
>the Americas), who seemed to have misread our purposes in like
>manner and
>were hoping to have their seeds fall on fertile ground.  While I try
>to keep
>censorship to the bare minimum, I have consistently ignored such
>contact
>seekers and will do so in the future.
>
>Perhaps we ought to make our purposes clearer, stress our
>internationalist,
>inclusive spirit more clearly?  Or would this mean having lunatics
>dictate
>our actions?

I think our purpose is perfectly clear. "He that's angry opens his
mou an steeks his een".

If such allegations are made in print I would support writing a
letter to put the record straight.

Andy Eagle

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From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: List

Thanks to much for all the input on this topic, folks!  I really appreciate
it very much.

Going by what Floor and Andy said, I feel that maybe we should put a brief
blurb onto our intro web page.

My draft based on Floor's draft:

"Lowlands-L is open to people of all types of backgrounds.  It focuses on a
particular group of languages and cultures but in no way proposes that these
are superior to others, nor does it ignore languages and cultures with which
these have come into contact in more recent times.  We are aware that the
history of the Lowlands area and its former colonies comes with some dark
chapters, and these may occasionally be mentioned in discussions. However,
we do not permit use of the List for promotion of chauvinist and xenophobic
notions."

Maybe "chauvinist and xenophobic notions" could have a rollover link opening
a window that says:

***
for instance ...
* interest in local culture as an expression of xenophobia
* colonialism practiced by countries of the Lowlands area
* slave trading and slave holding
* ideas of national and ethnic superiority (Nazism, apartheid, e.a.).
***

We should have these at least in English, Dutch, Afrikaans, Lowlands Saxon
and German, ideally in the other languages used as well.

What does everyone think?  Once we have finalized the wording, we would need
people to provide the Dutch and Afrikaans versions, and the other, optional
versions.

Thanks.
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: We went a bit crazy yesterday, didn't we?  I cut us off at No. 18, and
still the messages kept rolling in, even from Europe where I assumed
everyone was supposed to be asleep by then.  We seem to have quite a flock
of nightowls on this list.

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