LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.31 (04) [D/E]

Tue Aug 31 15:32:07 UTC 2004

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Pyt Berg <pytbergy at yahoo.com>
Subject: Dutch into English

am trying to ascertain the Dutch words that have come into English

The ones I know about come from
(a)navagation in 1600+
(b) and via the Dutch settlement of New Netherland in the USA.
(Read the book "The Island at the centre of the World")
(c) Afrikaans.

a. Starboard - Stuurboord,  Stranded (beached) -Strand, Yacht  -Jacht
b.  Coleslaw - Kohl Sla,  boss - baas, Sinta Klaas - Santa Claus.
c.  Trek, apartheid, boer??

Can anybody ADD to this list??

Pieter.........................

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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.30 (09) [E]

Dear Ron & Co.

Subject: Etymology

> Hmm ... That could very well be a link with this "cylindrical"
thingymabob.
> As a corresponding form of _dop_ (<Dopp>) I would expect *"dop" in
English.
> The only such word I can think of is "dop" in South African English,
> denoting cheap, bad liquor, apparently loaned from Afrikaans.

Yess, & you might share this with yr fellow 'topers' (assuming you 'top'),
that the S African equivalent of 'bourbon & branch' is ''dop & dam' (brandy
& water) [back to the 'dam']. I think this 'toper' has something to do with
tapping a barrel (tapper or tapster, hnnn?) Gesondheid!

The Afrikaans for a spinning or a whipping top is a tol, wich is also used
for a cotton-reel or bobbin, & to 'spin around' is to 'tol'.

But 'dop may also mean, 'shell' (egg), 'husk' (seeds), 'carapace'
(tortoise).

& 'top' may mean 'the top', 'peak', 'crest', 'to poll' (a tree).
It is also used to clinch a bargain: "Top!" = "Its a deal!"

Groete,
Mark

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From: ezinsser at icon.co.za <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.30 (09) [E]

Hi all,

Jan Strunk referred to a "Pitschendopp" and Ron noted: The only such word I
can think of
is "dop" in South African English, denoting cheap, bad liquor, apparently
loaned from
Afrikaans.

Firstly a 'dop' in Afrikaans is not a cheap drink but a hard spirit rather
than a glass of
wine or beer. You're probably referring to the old 'dop system' on some Cape
farms by
which workers were rewarded by an alcoholic drink.

The "tol" [in die rondte draai] in Afrikaans is the spinning toy, as in
English 'top'.

Yes, we have the "top [better: kruin] van die berg" or "toppunt van
arrogansie" and I've
heard my dad (when he still had hair) saying to his barber, "top net so
bietjie hier
bolangs, asseblief".

Groete,
Elsie Zinsser

> I know that Dutch and Afrikaans also have _top_ in the sense of "upmost
point."  What
about play tops and pigtails, though?

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From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.08.30 (09) [E]

>>> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>>> Subject: Etymology
>>>
>>> Moyen, Jan!
>>>
>>> Good to hear from you.  So where does our reverent Meister Johann
>>> reside
>>> these days?  Still in California or back in the old Ruhrpott?
>>>
>>>> Well, in Ruhr-German we have the old word "Pitschendopp" used for a
>>> whipping
>>>> top.
>>>> A top which is kept spinning by whipping it.
>>>> Maybe even etymologically related to English "top" in this sense?
>>>> Moreover, you can also call people "Döppen" or "Döppkes" with
>>>> diminutive
>>>> plural.
>>>
>>> Hmm ... That could very well be a link with this "cylindrical"
>>> thingymabob.
>>> As a corresponding form of _dop_ (<Dopp>) I would expect *"dop" in
>>> English.
>>> The only such word I can think of is "dop" in South African English,
>>> denoting cheap, bad liquor, apparently loaned from Afrikaans.
>>>
>>> As I said earlier, I don't doubt one bit that English "top"  and
>>> Scots _tap_
>>> are cognates of Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _top_ (<Topp>):
>>>
>>>    (1) top, summit, (upper) end, tip
>>>    (2) hair tip
>>>    (3) (hair) braid, pigtail
>>>
>>> Cf. German:
>>>    (1) Spitze, Gipfel, Wipfel
>>>    (2) Haarende
>>>    (3) Zopf
>>>
>>> (Cf. also related German _zupfen_ 'to pick', 'to pull', 'to tug'
>>> objected
>>> that are pointed or can be pulled into points, such as fabric or
>>> hair.)
>>>
>>> So, a _top_ in LS and English is basically a "point," and the toy
>>> called
>>> "top" in English fits in with that, having a point, albeit below
>>> when the
>>> toy goes into action.  According to the _Herkunftsduden_, the word
>>> may have
>>> first meant just 'point' (as seen in meanings 2 and 3), thereafter
>>> extended
>>> to '(upper) point.'
>>>
>>> Incidentally, a play top -- both the whipping and humming kinds --
>>> are
>>> called _küysel_ (<Küsel> ['ky:zl]) or _krüysel_ (<Krüsel> ['kry:zl])
>>> in
>>> North Saxon dialects, corresponding with the verbs _küyseln_
>>> (<küseln>
>>> ['ky:zln]) or _krüysel_ (<krüseln> ['kry:zln]) 'to spin', 'to
>>> gyrate' (cf.
>>> German _Kreisel_).
>>>
>>> I know that Dutch and Afrikaans also have _top_ in the sense of
>>> "upmost
>>> point."  What about play tops and pigtails, though?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Reinhard/Ron
>> Hi Ron,
>> In West-Flemish we use the following words:
>> -top = peervormig klosje hout met stalen punt of prik
>> The French took over the word in "toupie" and "toupet"
>> expressions:
>> Zo zot als een top = toppezot
>> Om top noch peze geven = ongevoelig zijn
>> top over top = rommelig
>> draaitop, hommeltop, hoppetop, ijstop, looftop, peretop, pinnentop,
>> sprieteltop, tatsetop, toptop, zweeptop, and also   toppère, toppéze,
>> topscheute, topwerk
>>  de top van den berg / de toppen-topkes- toptjes-toppelkes van 't haar
>> -toppelke = uiterste spits (toppelke van mijne vingre)
>> -toppen = aftoppen = de top afdoen
>> toppende vol = helemaal vol
>> op en top = helemaal in orde
>> -tol = top = het kinderspeelgoed waar men mee kan kempen/kappen  (=
>> met redelijk geweld in een kappende richting naar beneden gooien)
>> -a pigtail = een vlecht(je)
>
>> groetjes
>> luc vanbrabant
>> oekene

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Thanks for all the info (above), folks, and sorry about "cheap" in
connection with "liquor."

So, I see Dutch has _tol_ for 'play top' as well.  I keep wondering if
there's a Lowlands Saxon (Low German) cognate.  Of course, there is _tol_
(<Toll>) 'toll' (as in "customs," German _Zoll_), which Dutch and Afrikaans
have too (as do English and Scots (*_tow_?)).  However, I can think of LS
feminine gender (_tolle_ >) _tol_ (<Toll>) and (LS >?) German _Tolle_,
meaning "quiff (of hair)."  In the early 19th century it mostly denoted a
curled or "twisted" lock of hear plastered on men's foreheads (as can be
seen for instance in portraits of Napolean), and in the mid-20th century it
denoted a roll on hair on top of women's and girls' heads.  "Plastered,"
twisted quiffs in front of the ears are also a part of Spanish Roma
("Gypsy") women's traditional hairdos.  I suppose they might qualify as
_tol_.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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