LL-L "Morphology" 2004.02.08 (01) [A/E]

Sun Feb 8 18:15:14 UTC 2004

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Terrence Connor <tconnor at broadpark.no>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.02.07 (05) [E]

Goeie môre laaglanders

As I understand from reading various language quarterlies, books etc the use
of "sin/si/sitt/sine" to indicate possession is a direct loan from Low
German
first used in Bergen (which had  substantial population of hanseatic
"handelsmenn" in the late middle ages) and later other parts of Scandinavia.
I can understand that Kenneth has problems using it. It was considered that
the language of these businessman was superior and so much of it adopted
into norwegian.

Norsk

Katinka sitt hus (neut. house)
Katinka sin jakke (common gender or "jakka" fem. coat)
Katinka sine leker (pl. toys)

Det huset er Katinka sitt
Den jakken er Katinka sin / Katinka tar på jakka si. ( Katinka is putting
her coat on )

( Katinka "takes on" her coat)
De lekene er Katinka sine

BUT ....
Per går tur med hunden hans ( hunden til Ole)  - Per walks his dog (Ole's)
Per går tur med hunden sin ( hunden til Per )  - Per walks his dog (his own)

         sin/si/sitt/sine cannot be used as subject or predicative

Barna hennes kommer i morgen - Her children are coming tomorrow
    or     Hennes barn kommer i morgen
Bilen hans står der borte - His car is parked over there
    or     Hans bil står der borte
Huset deres er gammelt og koselig - Your(pl) house is old and cosy
    or     Deres hus er gammelt og koselig

Ek het geen probleem om "sin/si/sitt/sine" te gebruik. Vir my is noors die
makkelikste van die skandinaviese tale om te leer en uit te spreek.

Terrence

> From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen <kenneth at gnu.org>
> Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.02.07 (01) [E]
>
> > person reflexive pronoun, and also distinguishes reflexive and
> non-reflexive
> > possession in the 3rd person.  "Sin/sit/sine" would be used for
> "his/her/its
> > own" as opposed to "hans/hendes/dens/dets" for "his/her/its".
>
> Well in Jutish and all jutish regiolects we use "hans/hendes/dens/dets"
> for "his/her/its" and not "Sin/sit/sine". I have a lot of throuble
> getting used to use sin/sit/sine.
>
> Kenneth
>
> ----------
>
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Morphology
>
> Kenneth (above):
>
> > Well in Jutish and all jutish regiolects we use "hans/hendes/dens/dets"
> > for "his/her/its" and not "Sin/sit/sine". I have a lot of throuble
> > getting used to use sin/sit/sine.
>
> I find that somewhat surprising considering that Jutish should be assumed
to
> have had longer and more consistent (everyday) contacts with Lowlands
Saxon
> (Low German) than has Danish "proper."  LS has _syn_ (<sien>).  On the
other
> hand, can anyone think of Jutish/Danish influences on this system in LS
> dialects of the extreme north?
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Thanks, Terrence.

> Katinka sitt hus (neut. house)
> Katinka sin jakke (common gender or "jakka" fem. coat)
> Katinka sine leker (pl. toys)

This is exactly what the construction is like in Modern Lowlands Saxon (Low
German) dialects:

Katinka eer huus (<Katinka ehr Huus>) 'Katinka's house' (neuter)
Katinka eer schou (<Katinka ehr Schoh>) 'Katinka's shoe' (masculine)
Katinka eer(e) jak (<Katinka ehr(e) Jack>) 'Katinka's jacket' (feminine)
Katinka eer(e) speelsaken (<Katinka ehr(e) Speelsaken>) 'Katinka's
   "play things"'* (plural)

_Eer_ is 'her' (possessive).  Scandinavian _sin_, _sit_, etc., is derived
from masculine _syn_ 'his' and/or neuter _syn_ 'its':

Masculine:
Hinnerk syn huus (<Hinnerk sien Huus>) 'Henry's house' (neuter)
Hinnerk syn schou (<Hinnerk sien Schoh>) 'Henry's shoe' (masculine)
Hinnerk syn(e) jak (<Hinnerk sien(e) Jack>) 'Henry's jacket' (feminine)
Hinnerk syn(e) speelsaken (<Hinnerk sien(e) Speelsaken>)
   'Henry's "play things"'* (plural)

Neuter:
Dat kind syn huus (<Dat Kind sien Huus>) 'The child's house' (neuter)
Dat kind syn schou (<Dat Kind sien Schoh>) 'The child's shoe' (masculine)
Dat kind syn(e) jak (<Dat Kind sien(e) Jack>) 'The child's jacket'
(feminine)
Dat kind syn(e) speelsaken (<Dat Kind sien(e) Speelsaken>)
   'The child's "play things"'* (plural)

(* 'Toys' is _speeltüyg_ (<Speeltüüg> "play stuff"), a neuter-gender
singular noun.)

So, Terrence, I understand you are saying that LS-ization began from Bergen,
a particularly influential Hanseatic city, and reached Denmark that way.
While I can imagine that to have happened, I wonder if it did not also start
simultaneously from other Scandinavian trading cities in Sweden and Denmark.
Also, please remember that, as I mentioned, speakers of LS and South Jutish
dialects had direct contacts for a very long time, actually still do in the
Schleswig region. Many people being conversant in both, and we know that
Southern Jutish and the LS dialects of the area influenced each other.  SJ
has strikingly non-Scandinavian features (such as avoidance of enclitic
definite articles), and the local LS dialect have Scandinavian features such
as a preference for _-er_ marking nominal plurals.  However, it may well be
that the particular feature of possessive _syn_ etc. did not carry over to
Jutish, which would account for Kenneth perceiving it as "foreign," as
Standard Danish.

Thanks again!
Reinhard/Ron

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