LL-L "History" 2004.02.09 (04) [E/French]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 09.FEB.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: Tom Maguire <jmaguire at pie.xtec.es>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2004.02.08 (05) [E/French]

Hello Roger,

Thanks for the further info. you provide from Larousse.

I agree that histroical truth comes down to interpretation, no matter
whom you put your faith in. It is probable that Tacitus' version of
geopolitics is very much a personal interpretation, as my Latin teacher
used to hint. However he had the advantage of the practical experience
of an observer at the time.

Actually the subject was not History but rather Morphology and began as
a linguistic discussion on the influence of Latin on the Germanic
languages. I think I veered it into the geopolitical sphere because,
through the discussion, I was surprised at the claims of the extent of
Roman linguistic influence in the North of Europe and have little
linguistic input in this area. The latest geopolitical question was
Frederic's : whether the Roman term Germania coincided with Flanders.

Regards,

Tom

> From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
> Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.02.07 (06) [E]
>
>
>>From: Tom Maguire <jmaguire at pie.xtec.es>
>>Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2004.01.06 (06) [E]
>>
>>>About location of Germania in Flanders, I think the main source for this
>>>hypothesis is the belgian historian Albert Delahaye. I don't know how
>>>serious this hypothesis is and what to think about it. You can find some
>>>information in dutch at this site :
>>>http://home-1.concepts.nl/~delahaye/visie.htm
>>>Frd ric Baert
>>
>>Hello Frederic,
>>Tacitus describes Germania in this way:
>>"Germany is separated from the Galli, the Rhaeti, and Pannonii, by the
>>rivers Rhine and Danube; mountain ranges, or the fear which each feels
>>for the other, divide it from the Sarmatae and Daci. Elsewhere ocean
>>girds it, embracing broad peninsulas and islands of unexplored extent,
>>where certain tribes and kingdoms are newly known to us, revealed by
>>war. The Rhine springs from a precipitous and inaccessible height of the
>>Rhaetian Alps, bends slightly westward, and mingles with the Northern
>>Ocean. The Danube pours down from the gradual and gently rising slope of
>>Mount Abnoba, and visits many nations, to force its way at last through
>>six channels into the Pontus; a seventh mouth is lost in marshes."
>>(Chapter 1 of "Germania".)
>>Texas University website pictures this description in the following map:
>>http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/ancient_germania.jpg
>>Tacitus' description has Germania bordered by The Rhine, The Danube and
>>the Atlantic Ocean. This is a bigger area of territory than Flanders.
>
>
> I have some problems with touching historical theories, which are not
> supported by historians. In literature one finds quite some books about
> Atlantis, the Holy Grail, the pedigree of the Frankish king
> Clodovech/Clovis, linking him somehow with Maria Magdalena from the Gospel
> (I lost the reference).
>
> Academic historians generally do not invest much time in these theories,
> what generally contributes to the frustration of the discoverers.
>>>From time to time somebody throws a message about one of these issues in a
> newsnet list, provoking long threads with replies and often ending with
> explosive flames.
>
> Quite often these theories are based on a single source, or a cluster of
> related sources. Common accepted knowledge on the contrary is often not
> repeatedly supported with references in publications (the source is often
a
> combination of ancient texts with inscriptions on milestones, graves etc.
> and nobody wants to include these many thousands of references, which
> historically have lead to our actual knowledge, each time over and over in
> every publication about ancient times.)
>
> This does not exclude the possibility of findings, which require
adjustments
> of our common knowledge.
>
> About “Germania”, what I learned, I could find back on the Larousse
> Encyclopedia CD Rom (reproduced below)
>
> Basically it includes 4 definitions:
>
> 1 - Germania, as described by Tacitus (cf. message of Tom). Later, as to
> Larousse: “Germania magna” or “Germania libera”
>
> 2 - "Germania Inferior" (capital Köln) and
> 3 - "Germania Superior":
> two Roman provinces West of the river Rhine. The East of the actual
Belgium
> belonged to Germania Inferior.
>
> (Later, but not completely coincident: "Germania Secunda" and "Germania
> Prima")
>
> cf. Maps of Europe:
> Year 1:
> http://www.euratlas.com/big/0001big.jpg
> Year 100;
> http://www.euratlas.com/big/0100big.jpg
> Year 200:
> http://www.euratlas.com/big/0200big.jpg
> Year 300:
> http://www.euratlas.com/big/0300big.jpg
> Year 400:
> http://www.euratlas.com/big/0400big.jpg
> Year 50:
> http://www.euratlas.com/big/0500big.jpg
>
> As concerning old texts of the Roman empire I found the AD 400 list of
> dignitaries with areas of responsibility on the web at url:
> http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~halsteis/notitia.htm
> Please search with the “Find” function for “Germania” in:
> http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~halsteis/occ001.htm
> Also, illustrated, a version starting at:
>
http://www.fh-augsburg.de/~harsch/Chronologia/Lspost05/Notitia/not_intr.html
>
> 4. The "royaume de Germanie" (Kingdom of Germany): after the division at
> Verdun in 843
> This name was virtually completely replaced with “Saint Empire romain
> germanique" (Holy Roman Empire) in French after 1024, and I guess also in
> Latin.
> (Actually one finally switched from “Germanie” to “Allemagne” in French;
one
> apparently started using "royaume des Allemands" in 911, a number easy to
> remember)
>
> Below:
> Some texts pasted from the Larousse CD Rom
>
> Regards,
> Roger
>
> -- quote (in French)
>
> Germanie
> en latin Germania
>
> Ancienne contrée d'Europe centrale, limitée au N. par la mer du Nord et la
> Baltique, ?  l'E. par la Vistule, au S. par les Carpates et le Danube, et
?
> l'O. par le Rhin.
>
> Peuplée progressivement par les Germains entre 1000 et 500 avant J.-C.,
elle
> reçut son nom au plus tard au Ier s. avant J.-C. Jusqu'?  cette époque,
les
> tribus germaniques progressèrent vers le S. et l'O., au détriment des
> Celtes. En 55 avant J.-C., elles franchirent le cours inférieur du Rhin
mais
> furent repoussées par César. Auguste entreprit la conquête de la Germanie
> jusqu'?  l'Elbe : l'offensive dirigée par Drusus et Tibère fut freinée par
la
> révolte de l'Illyricum et le désastre de Quintilius Varus (9 après J.-C.).
> Malgré les victoires de Germanicus (Idistaviso, 16), Tibère replia la
> frontière sur le Rhin. En 90, Domitien fit de la région deux provinces :
la
> Germanie supérieure (chef-lieu Mayence) et la Germanie inférieure
(chef-lieu
> Cologne) après avoir occupé les champs Décumates. En dehors de l'Empire,
la
> Germania libera ou magna subit l'influence romaine. Les Romains
> construisirent un limes, ligne continue fortifiée, entre Coblence et
> Ratisbonne. La frontière rhénane, sur laquelle ils se replièrent en
257-258,
> fut abandonnée dans les dernières années du IVe s. Au Ve s., les Francs,
les
> Saxons, les Burgondes et les Alamans pénétrèrent dans l'Empire.
> © Larousse / VUEF 2002
>
> royaume de Germanie
>
> Né du démembrement de l'Empire carolingien et constitué par les
territoires
> de Francia orientalis accordés ?  Louis le Germanique en 843 au traité de
> Verdun.
> Après la mort de son dernier souverain carolingien, Louis III (ou IV)
> l'Enfant, en 911, l'expression « royaume des Allemands » s'imposa sur un
> territoire dont les limites étaient fluctuantes et qui allait
> progressivement s'identifier au Saint Empire romain germanique.
L'expression
> « royaume de Germanie » cessa d'être employée ?  la mort d'Henri II, en
1024.
> © Larousse / VUEF 2002

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