LL-L "Etymology" 2004.01.16 (04) [D/E/F]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 16.JAN.2004 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Stella en Henno <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.01.16 (03) [A/E]

> From: niels winther <niels.winther at lycos.nl>
> Subject: LL-L: "Etymology"
>
> Ron wrote:
> > I have long wondered what the origin of Afrikaans and Dutch _das_ for
> 'necktie' might be.

út it niis ferkynde Etymologisch Woordenboek van het Nederlands (A-E) (dêr
he'wy in tref!)

das (halsdoek): [âldste fynplak: 1666]
waarschijnlijk ontleend aan Nederduits "dass", "dasse", 'dikke wollen
halsdoek'. De verdere etymologie is onduidelijk. Vercoullie gaat uit van een
Vlaams "dass" 'pruik', dat hetzelfde woord zou zijn als "das(se)" 'pelsjas',
en een variant zou zijn van "dos" 'haar', 'vacht', 'kleding'; hij leidt dit
via Westfaals "dass", "doss" 'kleed' af van Italiaans "dossi" 'rug van de
grijze eekhoorn; bontkraag', in welke laatste betekenis dat woord echter
niet is aangetroffen [WNT].

Dochs iroanysk dat it wurd dan wer út it Nederdútsk komme soe, hoewol't ien
fan 'e oanliedingen wie dat Ron it wurd net koe (foar syn Nederdútsk,
alteast)....

Henno Brandsma

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Henno wrote that Dutch _das_ (necktie) is suspected to be a Lowlands Saxon
(Low German) loan, from _dass(e)_ 'thick woolen scarf', and he remarked that
it is strange that this word does not seem to survive in Lowlands Saxon
itself.  I agreed with this and pointed out that donor languages themselves
sometimes lose a word that survives only in its loaned form(s).

Henno:
> das (halsdoek): [âldste fynplak: 1666]
> waarschijnlijk ontleend aan Nederduits "dass", "dasse", 'dikke wollen
> halsdoek'. De verdere etymologie is onduidelijk. Vercoullie gaat uit van
een
> Vlaams "dass" 'pruik', dat hetzelfde woord zou zijn als "das(se)"
'pelsjas',
> en een variant zou zijn van "dos" 'haar', 'vacht', 'kleding'; hij leidt
dit
> via Westfaals "dass", "doss" 'kleed' af van Italiaans "dossi" 'rug van de
> grijze eekhoorn; bontkraag', in welke laatste betekenis dat woord echter
> niet is aangetroffen [WNT].
>
> Dochs iroanysk dat it wurd dan wer út it Nederdútsk komme soe, hoewol't
ien
> fan 'e oanliedingen wie dat Ron it wurd net koe (foar syn Nederdútsk,
> alteast)....

I suspect that this word was loaned at the Middle Saxon ("Middle Low
German") stage.

I found the Old Saxon word for the assumedly same thing: _halsfano_.
(_Hals_ is 'neck', and _fano_ 'rag', 'cloth' is a cognate of modern _vaan_,
German _Fahne_, 'flag'.)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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