LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.01.21 (09) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Floor en Lyanne van Lamoen <fvanlamoen at planet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.01.21 (04) [E]

Dear Reinhard,

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Lexicon
>
> Floor,
>
> As far as I know, the North Saxon dialects of Lowlands Saxon (Low German)
> have only the word _tal_ (<Tall> [ta.l]) for both German _Zahl_ and
> _Anzahl_.  (I don't know about Groningen dialects, which I count as "North
> Saxon" too.)

The funny thing is that Van Dale Etymologisch woordenboek (1989) suggests
that Dutch aantal may be derived from "Middelnederduits" antal.

> The only difference between German _Zahl_ and _Anzahl_ vis- -vis English I
> can tell is that, depending on the context, _Zahl_ can be translated
> either as 'number' or as 'figure', while _Anzahl_ can only be translated
> as 'number'.
>
> I have a "gut" feeling that _Anzahl_ is the countable equivalent of
> uncountable _Menge_ 'amount'.  However, don't take *my* word for it, since
> I am anything but a mathematician, just look at this from a purely
> linguistic point of view.

I don't expect you to be a mathematician!! The thing is that mathematicians
sometimes use language that differs from the everyday use. The discussion of
historia matematica was funny, because it was agreed that "Anzahl" means
"cardinality", a concept of which I doubt that "normal people" have any idea
of. The problem came up when a sentence by Cantor was to be translated into
English:

Die Anzahl der auf diese Weise gebildeten Zahlen ist unendlich.
The number (Anzahl) of numbers (Zahlen) formed in this way are infinite.

It was mentioned that one translator used Anzahl in the English text.

A good distinction for English speaking people, not familiar with the
"cardinality" concept is:

... number *of* ... --> Anzahl / aantal
... number ... --> Zahl / getal

I think that is the same distinction you were aiming at, Reinhard.

Another remarkable thing is the English plural in this translation. The
original by Cantor stated "ist unendlich" and also Dutch would use here a
singular form.

Kind regards,
Floor.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Thanks, Floor.

> I don't expect you to be a mathematician!!

If it were possible to convey body language and sound I'd be making a
gesture of wiping sweat off my forehead while making a "Ffff" sound -- often
used in the States to express relief.

> ... number *of* ... --> Anzahl / aantal
> ... number ... --> Zahl / getal

That's a nice (and simpler) way of distinguishing them.

> I think that is the same distinction you were aiming at, Reinhard.

I guess so.

> The funny thing is that Van Dale Etymologisch woordenboek (1989) suggests
> that Dutch aantal may be derived from "Middelnederduits" antal.

Hmm ... I can't verify this at this moment, but I take meneer van Dale's
word for it.  Also, Danish has _antal_ (versus _tal_), and this may well be
an older Lowlands Saxon loan.

The apparent loss does not surprise me all that much, given that much of the
language "shrunk" during the course of decline.  Certain traditional
technical areas (e.g., farming, animal husbandry, traditional crafts) still
have intact terminologies.  "General" terminologies, such as mathematics,
bookkeeping and trade and any "scientific" area dealt with in schools have
experienced lexical "shrinkage" or at least are stunted in their development
do to German dominance in those areas.  Those who stick to the old language
will mostly just borrow the German word or make up "(impromptu) calques"
(i.e., translating German words literally, in this instance theoretically
*_antal_, which would happen to be historically correct).  It could well be
that _antal_ came to be dropped because it was considered superfluous, _tal_
(like English _number_, and Scots _nummer_?) being considered sufficient in
all contexts.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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