LL-L "Syntax" 2004.11.07 (02) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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From: Roger Hondshoven 2 <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.10.24 (03) [D/E]

Hi Ingmar,

Thanks for your reflexion on my posting about a double negative.
Though Melkwezer is situated pretty close to the language border I don't
think the use of 'en' as a negation can be attributed to French influence.
French influence has indeed  been strong in that dialect as in all other
dialects in Brabant (Belgium), but the inluence can only be ascertained in
the field of vocabulary, never - as far as I can judge now - in grammatical
aspects.

Kind regards,

Roger

> From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl>
> Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.10.18 (02) [E]
>
> >>>>> Hey Roger
>
> Sounds interesting! Would it be possible that in parts of Flemish speaking
> Belgium this _en/ne_ negative particle
> was preserved so much longer because of French influence;like  _ne_ in  Je
> ne sais pas? I mean Melkwezer must
> be not too far from the Dutch/French (or Flemish/Walloon) language border,
> and standard French has been the
> official languages of the area so long, and the Brabant capital is
primarily
> French-speaking Brussels...
>
> The Geteland example you gave  _ich zeg oech da ich da ni en wil_  = St.
> Dutch ik zeg u dat ik dat niet wil
> looks quite Limburgish to me with all its  ch's. Is this part of Brabant
> already Limburgophone maybe? (Ingmar)
>
> > From: Roger Hondshoven 2 <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
> > Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.09.05 (03) [E]
> >
> > > > Hi all,
> > In connection with 'en/ne' I would like to add that in Brabant 'en' is
> used
> > as a negative particle together with another negative word. From the
> dialect
> > that I researched, the dialect of Melkwezer, a "Getelands" dialect in
> > East-Brabant, I may quote a couple of examples: as der ni en
zwecht..'als
> je
> > niet zwijgt..', ich zeg oech da ich da ni en wil 'ik zeg je dat ik dat
> niet
> > wil' . The 'en' is used only sporadically today and then by older
people.
> It
> > is my impression that  the word is only used before monosyllabic verbal
> > forms. In an article in Taal en Tongval (1950) J.L. Pauwels arrived at a
> > similar conclusion for the dialect of Aarschot

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From: Roger Hondshoven 2 <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.10.24 (03) [D/E]

Hi Ingmar again,

I forgot to react to your last paragraph where you noted " The Geteland
example you gave  ich zeg oech da ich da ni en wil  = St. Dutch ik zeg u dat
ik dat niet wil looks quite Limburgish to me with all its  ch's. Is this
part of Brabant already Limburgophone maybe?"
Melkwezer is indeed quite close to the Brabant-Limburg border and Limburg
influence is undeniable. In the book I published last year "Woordenboek van
het Melkwezers Een Getelands dialect" I enumerated the cases of eastern
(German) influence. I found as many as 16, far fewer than for instance in
the dialect of Tongeren (not so far from the Dutch-Limburg border), but
considerably more than in the dialect of Tienen (about 10 km west of
Melkwezer), which also belongs to the Getelands. By the way, Getelands has
always been the battleground where eastern and western language features
have been vying with one another for supremacy.

Regards,

Roger

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