LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.11.12 (05) [E/LS]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 12.NOV.2004 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.11.12 (01) [E]

Ron schreev:
 >
> what do you expect after centuries of ... well, let's call a
> spade a spade ... propaganda that "Low German" is a German dialect group
and
> as such deserves no more attention and autonomy (i.e., no autonomy) than
any
> other German dialect group, with the indirect message "use your dialects,
> but don't get any funny ideas (of separation/secession)!"?
>
But the same thing happened in the Netherlands, yet despite that people
here are more aware of cross-border relations.

> these things had been thoroughly exploited by the Nazis for
> their own sinister ends.   This includes commonalities between Germany and
> the Low Countries and Scandinavia, by the way, which Nazi propagandists
had
> exploited in preparation for "annexation" (i.e., occupation) and for
> courting collaborators.  (This is one of the reasons why some Germans have
> jumped to false conclusions about Lowlands-L and have called me anything
> from a Commie to a Nazi ...)
 >
Unfortunately, I have received the same treatment here in the Netherlands.

> I would even go as far as to say that
> educational levels, and thus levels of understanding, are generally higher
> in the Netherlands than in Germany, certainly in the post-war generation.
>
Educational levels of what? I haven't been educated in school about
(Low) Saxon. It's been mentioned exactly once during my whole 6 years of
middelbare school. At the end of it, I put (Low) Saxon poetry by Johanna
van Buren on my literature list. My literature list for DUTCH...

> Another thing you ought to consider is that in the Netherlands you can use
> LS and be pretty much understood even by Dutch speakers who don't know the
> language.
 >
That's not true. When people come over to my parent's place, and we all
talk (Low) Saxon, they don't understand us. My girlfriend is still
trying to cope with that.

>>I think your view is a little limited, but Ron can, and did already,
>>explain that much better.
>
> I'm not so sure about that, Henry.  All I can say is that, while I
> definitely recognize differences, I don't find the dialects of the
> Netherlands vastly different from each other.  Again, it's orthography
that
> creates the impression that they are vastly different.
 >
Ron, that's what I meant, I think you misunderstood me there.

> By the way, Henry, we may not (yet) agree on some orthographic details
 >
That will come to pass, I'm sure, because I want it to. It's rather
awkard to agree that it's stupid that others disagree so heavily on how
to spell stuff, and then en passant disagree with eachother about the
exact same thing, isn't it?

regards,
Henry

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From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2004.11.12 (02) [E]

Ron schreev:
>
> Henry (above):
>
>>By the way, would you mind if someone, trying to stick to ANS or
>>whatever, spelt soups as "ssupen"? I wouldn't do that, but let's suppose
>>someone would. Would that be acceptable?
>
> No, be my guest!  As long as you don't opt for _ßupen_ ... :-)
>
Why not? I like it that way. *ducks* ;)

Henry

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.11.12 (01) [E]

Henry P.:
> Ingmar schreev:

> > > That doesn't mean I would use it for my own variety of Dutch Low
Saxon,
> but that's only because of linguistic reasons...
> > >
> > That's interesting. What reasons exactly? If I can use ANS for my
> > variety, why can't you? I'm very "into" orthography at the moment, so
> > I'd very much like to hear your objections against using ANS or
> > something similar for your local variety.

>>>>> Well, what I know of ANS is too far off for my dialect to be accurate.
Why would I spell _ee_ or _ey_ for an [i:] sound, as in _iene_ ["i:n@] =
one,
and use the same spelling for _peerd_ [pe:@t] = horse or keze ["ke:z@] =
cheese?
And even write the same for [E:] in _vergèten_ [V@"GE:tn] = forget?
And suddenly spell the same [i:] sound as in _iene_ ["i:n@] as _y_ in
_blieven_ [bli:bm] = stay?
Why would I spell _oo_ or _ou_  when I say [u:], as in _bloed_ [blu:t] =
blood, and
use the same _oo_ for [o:] in _brood_ [bro:t] = bread?
And why make no differentiation between two  _aa_  sounds in gaon [xQ:n] =
go and _maak_ [ma:k] = make?
Or between the different _öö_ sounds in _zuken_ [zy:kN] = to look for and
_gleuven_ [xl2:bM] = believe?
Or write _uu_ for both [u] and [y] sounds, as in _huus_ [hys] = house, and
_moes_ [mus] = mouse?
I can give a lot more examples but I hope this is clear enough already.

In the case of using ANS here, the orthography for this kind of dialects
would be too far off from their pronunciation.
No one would recognize it anymore as its own language.
And for me who writes poems, the sounds are a very important part of the
poem itself.
That are briefly the reasons why I said this.
But I think the subject was orginally about the absence of Low Saxon at
TravLang, and I still think for such purposes
only one variety can be used, and the North Niedersachsen (Hamburg/Bremen?)
ones would be most acceptable for that.

Hold fast! Ingmar

 Reinhard H.:
> Yeah, I meant to challenge you on this earlier.  What's that all about,
> Ingmar, buddy?  It sounds a bit like "I encourage you all to use the ANS,
> but I won't use it, because I'm different."  Tsk-tsk!  "For linguistic
> reasons"?!  Are you being a silly goose, or are there considerations the
> rest of us haven't thought about?  ;-)

>>>>> Yes of course, you're right man, I 'm different, silly, didn't you
notice before?
Or may this "Tsk-Tsk!" be actually the sound of such a goose?
I'm not such a good ornithologist so I can't tell, but I'm sure we have some
of them amongst us...

Ghak-Ghak! Ingmar

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Henry (above):

> But the same thing happened in the Netherlands, yet despite that people
> here are more aware of cross-border relations.

That's probably because they are used to being more outward-looking.

> Unfortunately, I have received the same treatment here in the Netherlands.

Well, join the club, and let's show them who's what, eh?

> Educational levels of what? I haven't been educated in school about
> (Low) Saxon. It's been mentioned exactly once during my whole 6 years of
> middelbare school. At the end of it, I put (Low) Saxon poetry by Johanna
> van Buren on my literature list. My literature list for DUTCH...

Sure, and I don't want to stereotype too much.  Let's just say that people
in the Netherlands started receiving a more internationally oriented
standard education earlier, and the vast majority of them know at least two
foreign languages besides Dutch and their local language variety.  This
alone gives them a leg up, if they care to use their brains and put two and
two together.   The gap is narrowing now that education has been vastly
improved in Germany.

Even when I went to grade school, English was not yet a mandatory subject;
only kids that did well in German were admitted to English classes (and to
hell with the rest!).  (Now I'm really dating myself.)   And our English
classes were a joke!  Everything started changing for the better later on.
Before me, most working-class people wouldn't even dream of learning a
foreign language.  This was only reserved for the elite, for those that for
various reasons went to special schools in a hierarchical education system.
During the Nazi period, only special-school students learned English,
French, Latin and/or Greek, and mostly males.  One of the mottos of that
time was _Deutsche Frauen sprechen deutsch_ ("German women speak German"),
putting girls in their place (as future Germanic brood mares not to fool
around with men of inferior blood lines) in case they get any funny ideas.
My mother missed out on foreign language education this way and regretted it
for the rest of her life.  How can you expect a lot of language awareness
and insight from people that have been educationally deprived that way?
Women (and men) in the occupied Netherlands (and in other German-occupied
countries), on the other hand, were *expected* to (eventually, at least)
learn German as a foreign language.

Yes, we had a bit of "Platt" in grade school, as a part of German and local
history and culture.  That consisted of nothing more than singing a few
songs and some token tomfoolery.  That lasted for a hot second, was the
first thing to be axed when the budget called for it, i.e., "more important
things" needed to be accommodated in the curriculum.  My younger siblings
had none of that, except my next-younger sister who once got to perform the
Christmas song _Oh, Dannenboom_ in a school perfomance.

> > No, be my guest!  As long as you don't opt for _ßupen_ ... :-)
> >
> Why not? I like it that way. *ducks* ;)

OK, be my guest again, and let me know what reaction you get in Twente!

Ingmar (above):

> >>>>> Well, what I know of ANS is too far off for my dialect to be
accurate.
> Why would I spell _ee_ or _ey_ for an [i:] sound, as in _iene_ ["i:n@] =
> one,
> and use the same spelling for _peerd_ [pe:@t] = horse or keze ["ke:z@] =
> cheese?

> In the case of using ANS here, the orthography for this kind of dialects
> would be too far off from their pronunciation.

Ingmar, Ingmar, myn leyven jung ... You are still not getting it!  You are
still confusing or equating  "orthographic standardization" with "language
standardization!"  Snap out of it!  If in your dialect you say [pe:@t] then
you write _peerd_, and you write _kese_ if you say ['ke:z@] .  I say
[pe.IAt] and [ke:Iz], in Hamburg dialect [pi:At]* and [ke:Iz], and I write
_peyrd_ and _keys'_ respectively.  (*Lower Elbe dialects have a rule that
changes /ei/ to [i:] before /r/, but that is allophonic and does not call
for the spelling *_.)   I'm not going to go into the other examples, because
I assume (at least hope) you're getting the point now.

I'm not expecting you to spell words the same way as others do.  Yet, I dare
say that we would all understand each other pretty darn well in writing.
What this is about is "phoneme-based spelling."  There are still going to be
dialectal differences.  What counts is that we use the same inventory of
spelling devices.

> >>>>> Yes of course, you're right man, I 'm different, silly, didn't you
> notice before?

Well, what can we do?  We love you anyway.  (And did you notice Henry's
"duck" above?)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***
   Aanten int Water,
   wat vœrn Gesnater!
   Aanten in Dik,
   wat vœrn Musik!
        (from _Aanten int Water_ by Klaus Groth)

ANS:
   [Aanten in't water!
   Wat vör 'n gesnater!
   Aanten in d'n dyk!
   Wat vör 'n musyk!]

   De Göös un ok de Aanten,
   dat wiern de Musikanten.
        (from the folk song _De Vagelhochtiet_)

ANS:
   [Dey göys' un ook dey aanten,
   Dat weyrn dey musykanten.]

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