LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.11.21 (05) [E/LS]

Sun Nov 21 23:51:20 UTC 2004

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.11.21 (04) [E]

>>>>>Moi Jan,
ik bün ginnen spraeker van't Twentsch maor kenne wal et oost-ächterhoyksch
dialekt  van
Wenters=Winterswijk, dat neet sovölle anders is, gloyv' ik.
Dat "plat" daor steet noch dichter bij 't Westmönstersch van Bokelt, Vraeden
etc.

Daor in Wenters segget men dat so:
wij gaot 'n lekker ründeken doyr 't darp maken [vIj GQ:t @n "lEk9 "rYnd at k@n
d2:9t  dA:9p ma:k=N ("ma:k at n)].
So ok: warken [vA9k=N]/["vA9k at n] = arbeiten, vörksken ["V29ksk at n] = Gabel
(dim.), Derk [dE9k] = Dietrich.
Voyr T, D, S word  R nao kurte klanken neet uut-espraoken: swort [svQt'] =
schwarz, harte ["hAt@] = Herz,
kürter ["kYt9] = kürzer, wurst [vUs(t)], darden [dAd=n] = dritter.  T op't
woord-ende sprek men uut as [t'],
tüschen [t] en [ts] as in swort [svQt'], kurt [kUt'], neet [ne:t'] = nicht.
In Wenters kaste so wal [R] as [r] hoyren: ründeken = ["rYnd at k@n] of
["RYnd at k@n], krygen [kri:g=N]/
[kri:g at n] of [kRi:g=N]/["kRi:g at n].
.
De meeste loy in de stad segget tegenswordig ["RYnd at k@n], up 't platteland
erder ["rYnd at k@n].

Et kan waesen at de Tükkers (=loy uut Twente) duydelik wilt spraeken en
daorümme de R wal gebruket.
_dorrp_ [dQrp] is baeter artikuleerd as _dorp [dQ9p]?
Maor wel wet hef et ok te done met de nederlandsche spraektale
(alltäglicheUmgangssprache) waor men
_dorrep_ ["dOr at p], _werrek_ ["vEr at k], _berreg_ ["bEr at x] sek, maor _zwart_
[zwArt]/[zwajt] en
_worst_ [vOrst]/[vOjst] hebbet ginne "stumme e" = [@] (schwa).
Maor: _dorpen_ ["dOrp@], _werken_ ["vErk@], _bergen_ ["bErG@]!

Sal et so können waesen at de Twenten rr segget waor at Nederlandsch
svarabakti hef.
Ned. dorrep = Tw. dorrp = Went. darp.
Ik bün der sekers van at ok de Tükkers _swart_ [svAt'] en _hart_ [hAt']
segget, sunder R.
Ned. zwart = Tw. swa(r)t = Went. swo(r)t.

Ik waete ok neet bo dee verschellen der ekommen bünt.

In myne andere modersprake, et Suydwest-Drentsch, segge wij: dörrep
["d2r at p], warrek ["var at k],
barreg ["bar at x] = Berg, maor ok: swart [svat], darde ["dad@], vars [Vas] =
frisch.
Iin dörrep ["d2r at p] -> twei dörpen [d2rp=m], et warrek ["var at k] -> warken
[vark=N],
de barreg ["bar at x] -> de bargen [barg=N].

Boh Jan, bo geet dat bij ou in Westfalen met disse R-perikels?

Et lik mij to at Henry Pyffers wisse et best sol waeten bo dat in Twente
esekt word, he kümp daor jao her.

Good gaon, Ingmar Roerdinkholder

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From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2004.11.21 (04) [E]

Jan Strunk wrote:
>
> I have just listened to a CD called "Een Rondje Twents" that I bought
> some years ago in the Netherlands. I seemed to recall that the
> dialect made a very "rhotic" impression on me. But it seems that in
> general syllable-final, postvocalic r is also pronounced as a vowel.
> But in contrast to the Westphalian dialects that I know, an
> intervocalic r is always pronounced as a trill. Twents:
> Westphalian: lekker [lekka]                        lekker [lekka]
> lekker Rondje [lekkerondje]  lekker ründken [lekka ründken]
>
I'm a Twents speaker, and I'd pronounce that as [läkka rün(d)ke]
You may have heard a speaker from Enschede or Hengelo, two of the big
cities in Twente, which dialects have been greatly influenced by Dutch,
for obvious reasons.

> And the singer seems to constantly trill the r in the word for
> village: dorp, i.e. [dorp] not [doap] as it would be pronounced in
> Westphalia.
>
Yes, I would pronounce the r in words such as dorp. Does that make my
dialect non-rhotic?

regards,
Henry

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Henry (above):

> Yes, I would pronounce the r in words such as dorp. Does that make my
> dialect non-rhotic?

Not if a syllable-final /r/ isn't usually sounded as [r].

I take it you say _lekker_ as "lekka" and _bakker_ as "bakka" at the end of
a phrase or if pronounced alone.  How do you say _kark_ (church), _kar_
(car(t)), _peyrd_ ~ _peerd_ (horse), _barg_ (mountain), _baard_ (beard),
_warm_ (warm) and _wark_ (work)?  In my dialect(s) they are [k_ha:k],
[k_ha:], [p_hEI3t] (~ Lower Elbe [p_hi.3t]), [ba:x], [bQ:6t] (~ Lower Elbe
[bo:6t]), [va:m] and [va:k] respectively, definitely "non-rhotic."

(I've decided that for these dialects such /r/ realizations are better
represented by [6] after non-high vowels and by [3] after high vowels,
rather than [3`] which is really more r-colored than these sounds are.  I'm
using SAMPA substitutions for IPA here.)

Ingmar may well be right in postulating that your pronunciation [dorp] is
underlyingly /dor at p/.  This would explain this seeming irregularity.  This
sort of schwa epenthesis (_svarabakti_) between liquids (/l/ and /r/) and a
syllable-final consonant (sometimes also involving non-liquids) is
widespread among Low Franconian and Rhenish varieties.  It may have affected
farwestern Saxon contact varieties, especially those in the southwestern
range.

(I don't know if this is relevant. Just make a mental footnote of the fact
that the Twente and southern Drenthe varieties, like the Westphalian and
Eastphalian ones in Germany, are rather conservative in that they have
preserved many instances of suffix _-e_ where it has been dropped in most
North Saxon varieties; e.g., _ik kenne_ (NS _ik ken_) 'I know', _segge wy_
(NS _segt wy_) 'we say', _sey segget_ (NS _sey segt_) 'they say' in Ingmar's
message above.

By the way, the word for 'village' (archaic English "thorp") is umlauted in
my dialect(s): _dörp_ [d9.6p].

In the case of "black," /svart/ would have to be [sva:t], but it has gone
one step farther in that the resulting vowel sound has been shortened; hence
[svat] (although I usually write _swart_ for the sake of interdialectal
communication).  The same has happened to _hart_ [hat] 'heart' and _körter_
['k_h9t6] 'shorter'.  So I assume this has sunk to the phonemic level:
/svat/ and /hat/.  Apparently, this never applies anywhere but before /t/.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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