LL-L "Icons" 2004.11.26 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 26.NOV.2004 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

Onderwerp: Icons
Van: Larry Granberg <nibwit at yahoo.com>

Hi all,

At times this thread has been amusing, insulting, or patronizing depending
on your point of view.
As being one of those unfortunates having a tattoo (for almost thirty four
years now), I have to agree with a lot of the points stated. Some have no
idea, or do not care, or are following the crowd. However some do put
thought into it, and for others it is a deeply personal statement, as it
was for myself.
My thoughts are that it's time to get onto other subjects.

Thanks,
Larry Granberg

> From: Global Moose Translations
> Subject: LL-L "Icons" 2004.11.25 (04) [E]
>
> Elsie wrote:
>> I recently read Miriam Toews' _A Complicated Kindness_ and have again
>> wondered why it is
>> that certain societies/milieus evoke in their children the need to
>> carve or
>> hammer-in an
>> alternative identity? Is it alienation of the self, or a basic
>> rebelliousness against an
>> oppressive society?
>
> I think it has to do with overpopulation and the desperate need of
> insecure young people to stand out somehow, to emphasize their very own
> unique personal individuality (redundances intended), ironically in a
> way that is accepted by their peers and still makes them look like
> everybody else within their group...
>
> ...or maybe it's rather the opposite, trying to look just like somebody
> who appears to be popular within the target group ("gee, Britney Spears
> has her navel pierced, so if I do the same, everyone will love me and
> I'll become a filthy rich pop icon just like her"). Which must greatly
> annoy those who got their tattoos or piercings for the former reason.
>
> Or, probably more like it, the brain isn't even involved... it's "the
> done thing" and a symbol of belonging to the current youth culture.
> Again, a sign of great insecurity.
>
> Also, it may be a strong message to overbearing parents stating, "My
> body - and my life - belongs to me, not you, and there is nothing you
> can do about it."
>
> Gabriele Kahn


----------------

Onderwerp: Icons
Van: "Elsie Zinsser" <ezinsser at icon.co.za>


Hi all,

Gabrielle, I'm glad to hear that you share my thoughts on young people
being insecure
rather than self-accepting as a reason for piercings and the like.

I agree with most you are saying but, hey, my parents were overbearing and
neither I nor my 5 siblings have any such stuff. I think that my two
daughters would also agree that I am pretty much of a busy body myself and
they never thought it necessary to have tattoos to fit in!

There must be something else.

Regards,
Elsie Zinsser

Gabrielle said: "I think it has to do with overpopulation and the
desperate need of insecure young people to stand out somehow, to emphasize
their very own unique personal individuality (redundances intended),
ironically in a way that is accepted by their peers and still makes them
look like everybody else within their group...

...or maybe it's rather the opposite, trying to look just like somebody who
appears to be popular within the target group ("gee, Britney Spears has her
navel pierced, so if I do the same, everyone will love me and I'll become a
filthy rich pop icon just like her"). Which must greatly annoy those who
got their tattoos or piercings for the former reason.

Or, probably more like it, the brain isn't even involved... it's "the done
thing" and a symbol of belonging to the current youth culture. Again, a
sign of great insecurity.
Also, it may be a strong message to overbearing parents stating, "My body -
and my life - belongs to me, not you, and there is nothing you can do about
it."


-----------------------

Onderwerp: Icons
Van: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>


Sandy wrote:
"In my experience quite a number of young people in England know Japanese
very well."

I don't think so. Not in my experience at any rate. The English being
notoriously unwilling to learn foreign languages, Japanese comes even
further down the list than the pitiful numbers who know French, German,
Spanish, Italian (all taught as subjects at school to varying degrees).
Those are taught languages rather than home languages - there are many
more speakers of Panjabi, Hindi / Urdu, Bengali, Mandarin, Cantonese and
the like.

Yet I have never encountered an English person who can speak Japanese,
although I've met two or three Australians who can.

Perhaps you live in an area where a local tec offers a diploma in
Japanese, or one of your local universities does, or the English Japanese
speakers in question are of Japanese background.

Go raibh maith agat,


Criostóir.


-------------------------

Onderwerp: Icons
Van: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>


Elsie Zinsser wrote:
"I have again wondered why it is that certain societies / milieus evoke in
their children the need to carve or hammer-in an alternative identity? Is
it alienation of the self, or a basic rebelliousness against an oppressive
society?"

Every new generation rebels. Every new generation views the society in
which it finds its alienating and relatively oppressive. I do not believe
though that young people who tattoo themselves with symbols they know
nothing about are trying to construct alternative identities... it seems
to be more to do with ill-thought out fashion trends that are slavishly
followed. In trying to be different, they conform.

Linguistically we see this when the younger generation of minority
language speakers shift to the "dominant" language (such as from Irish to
English in the Gaeltacht here) as a form of rebelliousness.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criostóir.


--------------------------

Onderwerp: Icons
Van: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>

> From: ezinsser at icon.co.za <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
> Subject: LL-L "Culture"
>
> I'd like to discuss the reasons other than cultural significance,
> vanity or perhaps fun
> (?!) behind tattooing, piercings, lobe stretching and shavings of young
> people.
>
> I recently read Miriam Toews' _A Complicated Kindness_ and have again
> wondered why it is
> that certain societies/milieus evoke in their children the need to
> carve or hammer-in an
> alternative identity? Is it alienation of the self, or a basic
> rebelliousness against an
> oppressive society?

I think one thing that's of primary importance to understand is that in all
generations there are young people who rebel in one way or another. You
can read it in the parodies of youth by older writers in Victorian issues
of Punch (UK) magazine just as much as in the panicky essays in the Sunday
Post (Scotland) newspaper in the seventies when the Sex Pistols came on
the scene.

Many young people aren't even rebelling, but just doing things differently
from their parents. In the 17th century pamphlets were written against the
"new dances" that involved young ladies taking too large strides, just as
there was much rhetoric against Rock and Roll dancing in the 1950s. In
cases like this I think it's not rebellion that's the driving force, just
that something new has come along that's so much more fun than what the
older generation has come to cherish.

Another important thing is that the evidence of this rebellion is less
visible, and sometimes almost invisible in truly oppressive societies
because in such societies it's just too obviously dangerous to stick your
neck out, or at least not worth it.
The high visibility of alternative lifestyles these days is a combination
of the fact that the authorities are _not_ going to attempt to forcibly
stamp it out, with the fact that there is nevertheless still enough wrong
with society to make people who are new to the scene (ie young people) see
that there are things they want to object to, and visible expression of
these objections are one quite effective way of changing attitudes in
other parts of society.

Of the two points you listed, I would modify them and connect "a basic
rebelliousness against a (not too) oppressive society" with movements such
as hippies and punk (though they're very different ways of approaching the
problem), and "alienation of the self (by a society that causes such
alienation)" with goth.

I think that the order of these things is pretty much as it should be. We
always have to remember that the young aren't stupid and are looking with
fresh eyes at the mess the previous generation made, and that it's the
young, not the old, who are going to have to live in the world of the
future, it's not wrong that they should try to reshape it to the way they
think it should be. Even if a generation gets things wrong, it's not
unfitting because they're entitled to make their own mistakes in their own
world the same as every other generation has.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/


------------------------

Onderwerp: "Icons"
Van: "Ingmar Roerdinkholder" <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl>


I feel some irritation reading the messages on this subject, explaning
how ignorant, stupid and/or insecure these (young) people are. And above
all: how repulsive this all is...
Come on, folks on the list, not so conservative, you talk like your
grandparents would!
And who sais only youngsters have tattoos and piercings? because that's
absolutely not true. About insecurity: I think no one is totally secure of
him self, and so what, should we blame or condemn one for it?
Yes, Britney Spears, Christina Aguillera and Janet Jackson have their
nipples pierced, and other parts of their bodies, so have Lenny Kravitz
and many others, so? Personally I like it, I find it aesthetic and sexy,
and I don't blame younger or older people to copy that. I myself had a few
piercings too in the past -
now I 've just got a ring in my left ear.
But don't think I ever showed them to anyone, so I could prove how unique I
was, or to cover my insecurity or so!
And I'm already 35 years old, but maybe it is because I'm Dutch, how knows?
Ingmar


> From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
> Subject: LL-L "Icons" 2004.11.25 (04) [E]
>
> Elsie wrote:
> > I recently read Miriam Toews' _A Complicated Kindness_ and have again
> > wondered why it is
> > that certain societies/milieus evoke in their children the need
> > to carve
> > or  hammer-in an
> > alternative identity? Is it alienation of the self, or a basic
> > rebelliousness against an
> > oppressive society?
>
> I think it has to do with overpopulation and the desperate need
> of insecure
> young people to stand out somehow, to emphasize their very own unique
> personal individuality (redundances intended), ironically in a way
> that is
> accepted by their peers and still makes them look like everybody
> else within their group...
>
> ...or maybe it's rather the opposite, trying to look just like
> somebody who
> appears to be popular within the target group ("gee, Britney Spears
> has her
> navel pierced, so if I do the same, everyone will love me and I'll
> become a
> filthy rich pop icon just like her"). Which must greatly annoy those
> who got their tattoos or piercings for the former reason.
>
> Or, probably more like it, the brain isn't even involved... it's
> "the done
> thing" and a symbol of belonging to the current youth culture.
> Again, a sign of great insecurity.
>
> Also, it may be a strong message to overbearing parents stating,
> "My body -
> and my life - belongs to me, not you, and there is nothing you can
> do about it."
>
> Gabriele Kahn


==============================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================