LL-L "Etymology" 2004.10.17 (04) [E/LS/S]

Sun Oct 17 18:26:46 UTC 2004

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 17.OCT.2004 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.10.16 (06) [E]

Dear Pat,

 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.10.14 (16) [E]

> (i.e. Mark) writes
> >> According to the _Oxford English Dictionary_, the origin of this word
is
> >> unknown.
> >
> >Tolkien must have left before they got to 'T'.

Homer also nods - or at least, sometimes shrugs his shoulders and says
> 'dunno' (or the academic equivalent).  Tolkien was there for the W days
> (walrus and wampum, among other things, are his). There is a great paper
> on Tolkien's contribution to the Dictionary by Peter Gilliver (of the
> OED staff) in 'The Proceedings of the 1992 Tolkien Centenary Conference'
> (ed. Reynolds and GoodKnight).  I also recommend 'Caught in the Web of
> Words' (author and dates escaping me at the moment, as is the book
> itself).

Sorry, Pat. I know this. & forgive me please, everyone else. I was actually
provoking two mentors, Ron & Tolkien. Thanks for taking up cudgels on
Tolkien's behalf. I expect he made no record of cognates because there WERE
no cognates of teuchter to be found.
This disappoints me. I read in H. Sweet's 'Student's Dictionary of
Anglo-Saxon', "teon [participle of] TOGEN, draw, drag, pull, tug, educate,
instruct, GO, TRAVEL" (my capitals). Now what happened to this term in
Northhumbrian & Inglis?

Yrs,
Mark

----------

From: Grietje MENGER <grietje at menger.fsnet.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.10.16 (06) [E]

> From: Liesbethvlaomse at aol.com <Liesbethvlaomse at aol.com>
>
>   "['tjuxt?r] A term of disparagement or contempt used in Central Scotland
> for
>   a Highlander, esp. one speaking Gaelic, or anyone from the North, an
>   uncouth, countrified person."
>
>        Tom an Andy , a thank ye  fer thet informatie.  A thut as much thet
> thet were th menin' an hat a felin' thet it were ' peasant ' but wi' a bit
> mair byte en it.  It were fascinatin' tae her them lads a-spekin' ther own
> dialect.   It were beaurifully lyrical  and it wuid ha maad Robbie Burns
> proud.

Now, that's funny, I haven't lived long enough in Scotland yet to have come
across the word "teuchter" (it's sort of equivalent to Am Eng "hick",
wouldn't you say?), but last night I was in the Lade Inn in Kilmahog (that's
a mile and a bit north of Callancer in Stirlingshire, Scotland) singing in a
Ceilidh. The following are the lyrics of "The Portree Kid", containing, yes,
a teuchter. The melody is "Ghostriders in the Sky" and it's got a lot of fun
Scots words in - besides being funny, it's also got a feeling of genuineness
in.

Grietje Menger
Scotland

A man came riding oot the west one wild and stormy day
He was tall and quiet and hungry, his eyes were smoky grey
He was lean across the hurdies but his shoulders they were big
The terror of the hielan' glens, that was the Portree kid
His sidekick was an orra’ man, and O but he was mean
He was ca’ed the midnight plough boy, and he came frae
He had twenty seven notches on his cromak, so they say
And killed a million Indians, way up in Stornoway

Chorus:
He drum ho, he drum hey
The teuchter that cam frae Skye.

Portree booted in the door he sauntered tae the bar
He poured a shot o crabbies he shouted "Slangevar"
While midnight was being chatted up by a bar room girl called Pam
Who said well howdy- stranger, wad ye buy's a babycham
Now over in the corner sat three men frae Auchertool
They were playing games for money in a snakes and ladder school
The fourth man was a southerner who’d come up from Macmerry
He'd been a river gambler om the Ballachulish Ferry

Chorus

Portree walked up to the table and he shouted 'Shake me in'
He shoogled on the egg cup, he gave the dice a spin
He threw seven sixes in a row and the game was nearly done
But he landed on a snake, and landed on square one
The game was nearly over and Portree was doing fine
He’d landed on a ladder, he was up to forty-nine
He only had but one to go and the other man was beat
But the gambler couped the board up, and shouted "you're a cheat"

Chorus

Men dived behind the rubber plants to try and save their skins
The accordionist stopped playing, his sidekick dropped the spoons
He says "I think its funny, you’ve been up the ladder twice,
And ye always dunt the table, when I’m going to throw the dice"
The gambler drew his Skian Dubh as fast as lightening speed
Portree grabbed a screwtop and cracked him O the heid
Then he gave him laldy wi’ a salmon off the wall
And he finished off the business, wi’ his lucky grousefoot's claw

Chorus

Portree walked up to the bar, he says "I’ll hae a half"
And d’ye like the way I stuck it on that wee Macmerry nyaff
But the Southerner crept up behind his features wracked wi’ pain
And gubbed him wi' an ashtray made oot o' a curling stane
The fight went raging on all night till opening time next day
Wi’ a break for soup and stovies aff a coronation tray
It was getting kind o' obvious, that neither man would win
When came the shout that stopped it all "there’s a bus trip comin in"

Chorus

They sing this song in Galashiels and up to Peterheid
Way down oter the borders across the Rio Tweed
About what became O’Portree, Midnight and the gamblin' man,
They opened up a gift shop selling fresh air in a can

Chorus

----------

From: Grietje MENGER <grietje at menger.fsnet.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.10.16 (06) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Folks,
>
> I'm interested in loans that take on specific meanings (one of the
original
> semantic range, or a new one) in the recipient language where the original
> meaning in the donor language is not understood by all.  I would like to
> limit this to closely related languages, preferably at least one of them
> Lowlandic.  I will give you one example below, and I wonder if you can
come
> up with similar examples.

One perennial Dutch loan is _camping_ meaning not the activity, but the
place where you carry out the activity, in other words, the camp site. I've
known Dutch people to use it when in England / US / Canada or to an English
speaking person, usually getting a mystified look back.

Grietje Menger
Scotland

----------

From: Uilleam Òg mhic Sheumais <goidel.glas at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.10.16 (06) [E]

Ron wrote:
> In many North German dialects -- most of which drew much from Missingsch
> (German dialects with Lowlands Saxon [Low German] substrates) and thus
> indirectly from Lowlands Saxon -- the name for a ribbon tied in a large
> bow
> on top of the head (usually worn by young girls, these days still in many
> East European countries) is known as a _Butterlecker_, which to German
> speakers sounds like "butter licker."  Most people would not wonder about
> its origin, just accept it as a quaint name.  It is only those that know
> Lowlands Saxon fairly well and have been exposed to the relevant dialects
> that understand that this means 'butterfly' in the donor language
> (_botter-lekker_ ~ _butter-licker_) and in extension denotes this type of
> bow.  (The bow looks like a butterfly.)
>
> So, the North German version is a literal calque (i.e., a loan literally
> translated), and most people are not aware that it originally meant what
> in
> German is _Schmetterling_ 'butterfly'.

I don't know if maybe the German word is a calque of the French, but
in French the bowtie is "nœud papillon" = "butterfly knot". Maybe
German made a loan translation of the French and Lowlands Saxon in
turn made one of the German.

Or maybe the bowtie just looks like a butterfly to a lot of people.

Beannachdan,
Uilleam Òg mhic Sheumais

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2004.10.16 (06) [E]

Speaking of Butterleckers and Sommervagels, in Drenthish Lower Saxon the
butterfly is sometimes called _botterveugel_ ["botRv2:Gl].

Botterveugel

As 'n blaachien in de wiend
vört eblazen, weg eweid
zie ik oe, onschuldig kiend
in de rondte ummedreid
zunder wille weg eleid

Botterveugel, niet emaakt
veur de harfst of veur de règen
dat de harde storm oe raakt
striemen vègen
ku'j niet tègen

Zommerdag dat was oen leven
zunnestraolen op oen lief
bloemen hebt oe kracht egeven
oh zo mooi en zo naïef
nooit erèkend op verlies

Endlik bi'j töt rust ekomen
stille lig ie in 'n plas
onder bladerloze bomen
vaste vreuren as in glas
ieuwig dreumend van wat was

Ingmar Roerdinkholder

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks for the feedback, folks.

Ingmar, who is the author of the poem?

> Speaking of Butterleckers and Sommervagels, in Drenthish Lower Saxon the
> butterfly is sometimes called _botterveugel_ ["botRv2:Gl].

So a "butter bird," combining the two.  Nice!

Uilleam:

> I don't know if maybe the German word is a calque of the French, but
> in French the bowtie is "nœud papillon" = "butterfly knot". Maybe
> German made a loan translation of the French and Lowlands Saxon in
> turn made one of the German.

But, Uilleam, then German would have *_Schmetterling(sschleife)_ ("butterfly
(bow)," which it may have in some dialects), not _Butterlecker_ ("butter
licker').  *Northern* German uses _Butterlecker_ to only denote that kind on
bow, while Lowlands Saxon _butterlikker_ etc. does not only denote this bow
but, assumedly basically, also 'butterfly'.  My point is that I think that
_Butterlecker_ is a German calque (literal translation) of Lowlands Saxon
_butterlikker_ etc. *only* in the sense of 'butterfly bow', not in the sense
of 'butterfly' (which is _Schmetterling_ in German), and that the average
German speaker using this calque _Butterlecker_ has no idea that in the
donor language it moeans 'butterfly'.

> Or maybe the bowtie just looks like a butterfly to a lot of people.

A bowtie is called _Fliege_ ("fly") in German and _vleyg'_ [flE:IG] ("fly")
in Lowlands Saxon (Low German) of Germany.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

================================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
======================================================================