LL-L "Phonology" 2004.10.18 (08) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 18.OCT.2004 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2004.10.18 (02) [E]

>>>>> It is a strange phenomenon, but I think it happens with more
languages:
that learners can't hear some of the nuances in pronunciation in a certain
language that are absolutely self-evident for its native speakers.
This is the case described below with Dutch v [v] and w [W].
I'm under the impression that even many Dutch with Frisian mothertongue are
_deaf_ to this distinction, because they often tend to pronounce Dutch leven
as ["le:iW@] in stead of ["le:iv@]. Dutch initial v- in Frisian mouth
becomes [f] : vader ["fa:d at r] for ["va:d at r].

Other examples: Scandinavians hear [s] for [z] in English; Abba: thank you
for the music [mju:"sIk].
Most Dutch - and probably many others - can't distinguish English short a
[{] and e [E] when they here it, although we can learn to pronounce both
vowels
differently when we know how they are spelt...
I believe that the difference between Dutch ij/ei [Ei] and ee [e:i] is not
so easy too for foreigners. Nijgen ["nEiG@]/ neigen ["nEiG@] but negen
["ne:G@] etc.
Or between ch and g: ruige ["r2yG@] = rough/rude vs juichen ["j2yx@] =
shout/jubilate; kogel ["ko:uG at l] bullet vs goochel ["xo:ux at l] juggle/play
tricks etc

Personally, I don't hear or pronounce German, German Lower Saxon w- or
Scandinavian v- as Dutch v [v] but as Dutch w [W].
English and French v- = Dutch v [v] to me, but for instance Czech or
Hungarian v I hear as Dutch w. So the spelling is not important here for the
perception...

Ingmar

> R. F. Hahn wrote about the subject orthography:
>
> Thanks, Ingmar.
>
> Dutch (and Netherlands Lowlands Saxon?) /w/ is pronounced as a labiodental
> glide.  It corresponds to voiced fricative [v] in the dialects on the
German
> side of the border.
>
> The phonetic output of Dutch (and Netherlands Lowlands Saxon?) /v/ is a
bit
> of a mystery to those outside the area.  People in the Netherlands
describe
> it as a "devoiced v".  Well, a "devoiced v" would be [f] according to
> internationally accepted principles.  However, native speakers swear up
and
> down that you can clearly hear the difference between /v/ and /f/.
>I have been listening and listening and have come to the conclusion that
the
> difference is a puff of air that accompanies /f/ and does not accompany
/v/.
> It is easy to imagine -- if you are right, Ingmar, and this set of three
is
> original and was disturbed by German influence in "Oostersch" -- and I
tend
> to go along with you there -- that /v/ came to be usurped by /f/ in the
> east, thereby creating a set of two phonemes out of a set of three.
>
> So ...
>
> Initials:
>
> Netherlands:  w  |  v  |  f
>
> Germany:       v   |     f
>
> In a spelling system that allows dialectal variation with maximal
> interdialectal reading comprehension (which is what I propose), we would
> therefore have to free up the <v> for the /v/ of the Netherlands and write
> <f> for what is true initial /f/ in all varieties.  What do you think,
> Kenneth, others?  This, together with <ii> makes the system look more and
> more like North Frisian.
>
> Ingmar, you wrote:
>
> > >>>>> Oh, I didn't read it so well then again, huh? But I understand in
> > Germany this
> > LowSax initial v- is always pronounced as [f] ? That's different in
LowSax
> > in the Netherlands,
> > where [v] is written as v- and [f] as f, before a vowel that is. As I
said
> > earlier, vr- and vl-
> > are pronounced [fr]/[fl]. vroagen [frO:gN] = to ask  and  vrij [frIj] =
> > free; vlochten [floxtN] = to flee;
> > here v- is spelled because Dutch writes and pronounces [v] in stead of
[f]
> > in these consonant clusters.
> > But we spell with f: flesse ["flEs@] = bottle, fluiten [f9ytN] = to
> > whistle/flute, fruit [fr9yt] = fruit
> > because of these words have f in Dutch too.
>
> We don't care about following Dutch and German idiosyncracies, as I had
> said.  So the (nativized) words for "bottle" (which on the German side
> happens to be _bottel_ or _buttel_), "to whistle" and "fruit" would have
to
> be spelled _vlesse_, _vlöyten_ and _vröyt_ respectively.
>
> But where *do* the Saxon dialects of the Netherlands pronounce /v/ as this
> "devoiced v"?  As initials followed by vowels?  E.g., _vechten_ 'to
fight',
> _vinden_ 'to find', _vaak_ ~ _vaken_ 'often'?
>
> We have to be absolutely sure this initial /v/ is really and truly a
> separate phoneme and thus requires its own grapheme.
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

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