LL-L "Lexicon" 2004.10.29 (06) [LS]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 29.OCT.2004 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

From: Utz H. Woltmann <uwoltmann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.10.28 (07) [A/D/E/LS/German]

Moin alltohoop,

>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Literature
>
>   Afrikaans translation (Elsie Zinsser):
>
>   lewenslank
>   gewillig, gedienstig, geruk en gepluk
>
As ik "gepluk"  sehn heff,  müss ik an "Pluckte Finken" (German:
Gepflückte Spatzen) orrer  "Pluckte Finken un hackte Müüs" orrer
"Pluckte Finken mit Höhnerbree un hackte Müse mit stowte Mürmannsnäsen"
denken. Dat seggt se in Bremen to Mangkookteeten. Un dat schall
afstammen vun pluckten Vinken (German: in große Würfel gehauenen
Walfischspeck). Aver ik heff "Vinken" nienich in´n Nokixel funnen. Wi
bruukt hüdigendaags "plucken" as "vun´n Boom daalholen". Vun tweihauen
orrer sneteln, daar weet ik nix mehr vun af.

Kumpelmenten
Utz H. Woltmann
Pluckte Finken mit Höhnerbree un hackte Müse mit stowte Mürmannsnäsen

----------

From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2004.10.28 (07) [A/D/E/LS/German]

In Kreis Rendsborg segg wi ok "sabbeln" as een veel snack un ok veel dumm
tuech snack. "He sabbelt sik wat trech" oder "Se sabbelt doch man blot
twirnkraam, maak di man keen sorgen" Kinnt ji dat ok in annere regionen?

Groeten
Helge

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Yesterday I wrote under "Semantics":

> Roughly speaking, the difference between _sprechen_ and _reden_ in German
is
> like that of "to speak" and "to talk" in English.  There is a semantic
> overlap where you may argue they can be used interchangeably.  If I
> _spreche_ German I "speak" German, am able to speak it, or I speak it
> habitually.  If I _spreche_ in German I "speak" in German which is getting
> close to _reden_ (in) German, "to talk (in) German."  Some German dialects
> do not make these differences and may use differnt words to cover both
> meanings.  The same goes for Yiddish (רעדן _redn_), which belongs to the
> German group.
>
> In ordinary Lowlands Saxon (Low German) speech modes people don't really
use
> different verbs.  In the North Saxon dialects we use _snakken_ in all
these
> contexts without sacrificing any semantic subtleties.  _Ik snak
> Ingelsch/Engelsch_ 'I (can) speak English', _Ik snak up/op
> Ingelsch/Engelsch_ 'I speak in English', 'I talk in English'.
>
> Now, when you use _klönen_ -- which is what Utz mentioned -- you are
really
> talking about 'chatting', 'conversing', 'shooting the breeze', not just
> about speaking or talking.  You can speak and talk by yourself, but you
can
> not chat by yourself.  (Well, you technically can, but that's a different
> matter.)  Likewise, you can _snak_ by yourself, having a monologue, but
you
> can not _klönen_ by yourself.  _Sey klöönt in/up/op Ingelsch/Englesch_ mea
ns
> mostly 'They are chatting in English,' 'They are conversing in English',
and
> the like.  You cannot say *_Ik klöön Ingelsch/Engelsch_ to mean "I speak
> English," and if you want to say "I converse in English" you must use
either
> _up/op_ or _in_.  You *can* say _Ik klöön geyrn up Ingelsch_ 'I like
> chatting/conversing in English', which implies that at least one other
> person is involved (unless you like having conversations with yourself).

I have a hard time deciding if this thread belongs to "Semantics,"
"Etymology" or "Lexicon" ...

I should have made clearer that _klönen_ denotes 'to chat' with a definite
element of 'leisurely', 'pleasant' and 'relaxed' in it.  So you do not
_klöön_ at a business power lunch, rather when meeting with friends or
relatives for a relaxed, _kommodig_ or _oldmodig_ (= German _gemütlich_,
Dutch _gezellig_, Danish _hyggelig_) time, a cozy, relaxed time with
chitchat.

I want to add that there are also nouns that belong to that group of words.

In some dialects _klöön_ (<Klöön> ~ <Klöhn>) is the nominal equivalent of
the verb _klönen_, so 'chat', 'smalltalk'.  In other dialects it is
_klöönsnak_ (<Klöönsnack> ~ <Klöhnsnack>), incorporating the word _snak_
(<Snack>).  Derivations are _klöönstün(d)_ ("chatting hour") 'time for
chitchat', _klööndöör_ ("chatting door") 'two-part house door' (of which you
can open the upper part, lean your elbows on the closed lower part and chat
with your neighbors -- see http://www.marless.de/gott/erinn/holm.htm with a
picture), and _klöönkassen_ ("chatting box"), a nickname for either 'radio'
or 'telephone'.

Apparently, _klönen_ is related to older Dutch _kleunen_ 'to knock' and Old
English _clynnan_ 'to make noise', 'to sound'.

As you can see in the compound _klöönsnak_ above, _snak_ (<Snack>) can also
be a noun.  Basically, it just means 'talk'.   It can also mean 'talk' in a
derogatory sense, such as in _dwaller-watschen snak_ 'silly talk',
_old-wyver-snak_ (<Oldwieversnack>) 'old wives' tale' (American English also
_bobbemaysse_ < Yiddish באבע־מעשייה _bobe-mayse_ "grandmother tale").
_Snak_, like "talk," can also connote something like 'rumor' (e.g., _de
navers er snak_ 'the neighbors' talk/gossip').

Apparently, _snak-_ is related to English "snack," which is believed to have
come from older Dutch or Flemish _snacken_ 'to snap (of a dog)', also found
in Norwegian dialects as _snaka_ 'to snatch'.  I am pretty confident in
saying that it is related to English "snatch" (with palatalization of /k/
before /e/, thus *_snacce_ < *_snakke_).  I assume that the original meaning
was something like 'to snap (with one's teeth)'.  Hence, English "snack" in
the sense of "bite" -- "to snack" = 'to have a bite to eat," similar to
German _Happen_ and _Bissen_ and Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _happen_,
_haps_ and _beet_, and Dutch _hapje_.

Equivalents of _snakken_ in the sens of 'to talk' are found in Scandinavian
as well, probably as Middle Saxon loans from Hanseatic times.  Danish and
Norwegian _snakke_, Swedish _snacka_.

Above, Helge brought up the verb _sabbeln_ as well.  This and the nominal
derivative _sabbeley_ (<Sabbelee>) are pretty much always used in a
derogatory sense,
connoting idle, silly, senseless, irrelevant and/or relentless chatter.
It's original meaning, still active, it is 'to drool', 'to spit while
talking'.

What may be of interest is that in German dialects of the north, probably by
way of Missingsch (i.e., German dialects on LS substrates), you can use the
loanwords _schnacken_, _klöhnen_ and _sabbeln_ *in addition* to _reden_,
_sprechen_ and _sich unterhalten_.   They are used with specialized meaning,
both coming with the sense of "in a relaxed/laid-back manner."  For
instance, if you have a complaint about someone and ask someone to intervene
or mediate, that person may say _Ich schnack mal mit ihm/ihr_ 'I'll talk to
him/her (in a non-confrontational manner)', as opposed to _Ich rede/spreche
mal mit ihm/ihr_ 'I'll talk to him/her' which may or may not connote a more
serious way of talking, perhaps even rebuke.  _Klöhnen_ definitely has the
sense of 'to shoot the breeze', 'to chew the fat', never that of a serious
conversation (as opposed to _sich unterhalten_ and _Unterhaltung_ which are
more neutral, can have various types of meaning).  _Sabbeln_ and _Sabbelei_
have the same derogatory meanings as in the donor language.

Un hier is nu mien Anter an Utz œver sien "Pluckte Finken mit Höhnerbree un
hackte Müse mit stowte Mürmannsnäsen" (baven).

Man, Utz, "plucken" or "plücken" kann ook -- liek as _to pluck_ in't
Ingelsche -- 'Feddern utrieten' bedüden, un daarwägen höört sik "pluckte
Finken" vundagigendaags as _gerupfte Finken_ an.

Wat Elsie meen mit afrikaans _gepluk_ is schients wat up düütsch _gerupft_
is.

Man in olere Tieden bedüüd' "Fink" (düütsch _Fink_, ingelsch _finch_) ook
"Lünk" (< _Lüning_ ~ _Lünink_ < oldsassisch _hliuning_; düütsch _Sperling_,
_Spatz_, ingelsch _sparrow_), daarwägen denn ook _gepflückte Spatzen_ up
düütsch, dat 'n egentlich as _gerupfte Spratzen_ œversetten schull.
("Fink" heet _finko_ in 't Oldsassische.)

Man Du hest sachs recht.  Daar stickt öllere Wöörd' achter.  In Mäkelnborg
hebbt se 'n Resteäten, in dat se Fischstücken rinsmieten doot, un dat nœmt
se "Plückfisch".  Sachs bedüüd' düt "plücken" or "plucken" ehrmaals ook so
wat as "tohoopkleien" (t.B. tohoopkleite Fischresten in'n Putt Läpelköst mit
rinsmäten).

Vun _Vinken_ as Stücken vun Waalspeck (ingelsch _whale blubber_) wäät ik
niks af.  Is dat amenn Middelsassisch?  Sachs, wenn 'n de Schrievwies' mit
"v" bedinkt.

So, wat is dat för 'n Äten, düt "Pluckte Finken mit Höhnerbree un hackte
Müse mit stowte Mürmannsnäsen" (lit. _plucked finches/sparrows with chicken
mash and chopped mice with steamed masons' noses_)?  Höört sik gräsig un
ääklig an!  Ah, ja!  Heff dat Rezept jüst funnen:
http://www.bastelmafia.com/Content8349 .  Geiht je noch.  Kunn leger wäsen.

Kumelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

==============================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================