LL-L "Folklore" 2004.09.01 (11) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 01.SEP.2004 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2004.09.01 (01) [E]

Liesbeth wrote:
> tolkien's imagery is white= « good»=»black=«evil».  Tolkien borm in
> Bloemfontein , Zuudafrika.

I really don't think that this signifies what you are implying; the
symbolism of white (light) = good and black (dark) = bad is much more
profound and much older than that, and has nothing to do with race. I won't
deny, however, that this ancient notion of dark = bad may have something to
do with the way dark-skinned people were regarded. But this would be just
the other way round, then. Anyway, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't
recall any traditional imagery among Africans or native Australians where
the colour black = good and white = bad.

Tolkien's works are very much based on old Germanic myths, and this concept
comes, of course, from the harsh seasons that prevailed in Northern Europe.
White stands for the sun which gives light, warmth, and life, while black
stands for the darkness, cold and bleakness of winter. This was way before
central heating, electric light and supermarkets, and I daresay that people
much preferred a season where food was abundant and their infants didn't die
of starvation and exposure. This is especially true for Scandinavian
countries were people had about four hours of sunlight per day.

By the way, the two most beautiful elven princesses in Tolkien's works,
Luthien Tinuviel and Arwen Undomiel, both had raven-black hair...

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2004.09.01 (01) [E]

>[Liesbeth van der Belt]

In message <00b601c49035$20874960$1c0d5f80 at dental.washington.edu>,
Lowlands-L <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net> writes
>tolkien's imagery is white=   good = black= evil .  Tolkien borm in
>Bloemfontein , Zuudafrika.

I think that this says both too much, and too little.

Too little: the mapping of white to good and black to evil is not just
Tolkien's.  It permeates Western thought.  Maybe even human thought.
The day is the good time, when it's warm, and most of the nice stuff
happens.  The night is the bad time, when it's dark, when 'things' come
to get you, and precious little good (apart from sex) happens.

Too much: Tolkien, like other writers does use the light/dark good/evil
parallels, but this is just one of his many, many uses of colour (follow
'green' through The Lord of the Rings, for example, or 'grey').  And he
doesn't just use colour.  You imply that, for Tolkien, things are either
one or the other: I don't read such dichotomies: there are layerings of
light, shadowings of evil: absolute good and absolute evil are only
present as echoes, hints and suggestions.

To bring this back to a Lowlands topic (but keeping with Tolkien): there
is a section in The Lord of the Rings where Tolkien unpicks the
light/fair dark/foul correspondence, and I wonder if the translators
have a phrase in the various Lowlands languages to use which means the
same as the English phrase 'all that glitters is not gold' (glisters,
sometimes, rather than glitters - I can't remember which Tolkien uses.

Cheers,

Pat
--
Pat Reynolds
pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk
   "It might look a bit messy now,
                    but just you come back in 500 years time"
   (T. Pratchett)

==============================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================