LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.02.09 (06) [E]

Wed Feb 9 21:51:04 UTC 2005

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From:  Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.02.09

God Daeg, Laagelennere!

Once more into the breach, even if I bear scant weapon. I shall draw my
trusted
ensi cru aeran (can anyone guess the language? Clue: think back very far in
time);

Small disagreement with Ron Hahn. I don't believe that "artist" in a purely
Germanic English tongue would have rendered it "wright". The latter was used
foremost for craftsmen who made utility items such as wheels and ships. No
doubt many were both skilled and creative, but crafts they were. Instead, I
believe the "art" category would have used Ablaut variations of "kunnen",
"Kunde" "Kunst" and other close family members.

Modern English still has "cunning" from that root. Where I grew up, a task
at which I failed utterly, up just about any holler you heard a nearly pure
Saxon spoken. A holdover from William the Conqueror's halcyon days, Saxon
was the language of the peasantry, the bumpkin, the lower classes.

So it remains. "Go git that ther shovel an dig me a hole 'bout three foot
deep".

In a low Germanic English, Ron Hahn the artist would perhaps be a
"cunninglinguist".

Good job, y'all, on the Lord's Prayer. I still think that "temptation" would
have come out more like the Gothic "fraistubni" (related to the Norse/modern
Swedish "fraestelse").

As to the concept of "name", both right and wrong: It stems from PIE
(proto-into-european),thus occurs in Latin, Germanic, Celtic, Slavic, and
Baltic descendant tongues.
It may have been similar in Nostratic. More distantly related to "soul", or
"ama", "anm",
"atem" "anima", and many other next of kin words.

Jah aflet skulans meinaim af filuwaurdeis!

Arthur

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From:  Gavin Falconer <Gavin.Falconer at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.02.09 (04) [E]

Ron wrote:

"Here are a few Germanic-based Scots words that have latinate English
equivalents:"

Hately Waddell actually invented Germanic Scots words where Latin ones
already existed, e.g. "redden-right" in place of "decreet" ('decree').
There are several possible reasons: to increase the Abstand of Scots from
Standard English; to capture the Germanic soul of the Lowland Scot; or to
rewrite history by circumventing the role of Latin, and the Catholic Church,
in transmitting the Gospels. Sir John Cheke did the same thing with his
English translation in the sixteenth century.

See Graham Tulloch, A History of the Scots Bible with Selected Texts
(Aberdeen: Aberdeen University Press, 1989).

--
All the best,

Gavin

Gavin Falconer

"Tharfor wordly happe es ay in dout
Whilles dam fortune turnes hir whele about."

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From:  Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.02.09 (04) [E]

Ron wrote:
"Here are a few Germanic-based Scots words that have latinate English
equivalents..."

English uses _howl down_ for Scots _cry doun_ (Lat. disparage), and _dab
hand_ for Scots _dab haun_ (Lat. expert), and has a cognate for Scots
_unkent_ in _unknown_.

Also:
"Good to hear from you and to know you're a fellow-whatiffer!"

It is without doubt my main hobby in linguistics. It must be the influence
of all those Cornishes (Unified Cornish could be described as whatiffery to
some extent, but that's a discussion for another thread and place)!

Also
"Sure, but bear in mind that, had the Norman Conquest never occurred, the
grammar (morphology and syntax) of English would now be very different,
supposedly more complex, with the syntax more flexible (as in the
continental relatives). So it's not just a matter of lexicon, and that's a
problem when you whatif a text. Furthermore, _The Lord's Prayer_
(_Paternoster_) happens to be one of a few pieces that contains relatively
few latinate words."

I was in a bit of a rush this morning, and the moment I pressed send I
realised the Paternoster was probably the worst possible text to undertake
some whatiffery over. Thanks for your attempts anyway (I especially liked
the overly-Latinate one). Perhaps the first article of the Universal
Declaration of Human Rights is suitably Latinised.

'All HUMAN beings are born free and EQUAL in DIGNITY and rights. They are
endowed with REASON and CONSCIENCE and should ACT towards one another in a
SPIRIT of brotherhood.'

My offering (I know nothing of Old English but have used other West Germanic
languages as my template):

'All MEN [men here presumably having the same neuter connotations as D. and
Ger.] are born free and LIKE in WORTH and rights. They are endowed with
UNDERSTANDING and WISDOM and should BEHAVE toward one another in a GHOST of
brotherhood.'

I understand the grammar would be very different for the reasons you
describe, and presumably the Middle English vowel shift would not have taken
place either. Given those probabilities, is anyone able to project how
English would reasonably sound and be said toward, phonemically and
grammatically, but for the Norman invasion?

Of course, the notion of the disruptive effect of the Norman invasion also
brings me to the most appropriate orthography for English (effectively a
pan-West Germanic one), but that too is a matter for another thread.

Great fun!

Go raibh maith agat,

Criostóir.

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From:  Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.02.08 (03) [E/LS]

Ron schreev:
>
> There are also apparently specific words; e.g.,
>
> butje (Buttje)  'little boy', 'urchin'; 'parakeet', 'budgerigar'
 >
In Twente (and perhaps in surrounding areas too) we have a word
"buetje(n)" (bütje(n)) too, meaning more or less the same.

Henry

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From:  Domhnall Seaghdha <domhnall at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.02.09 (04) [E]

Dear Gavin,

Thank you very much for the link you enclosed in your message to the works
in Scots.

Wow!

Regards,

Domhnall

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From:  R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Hi, Domhnall!  Great to meet you among the verbal!

The link Gavin provided (http://www.scotstext.org/) is to a site created and
run by our own esteemed, long-time Lowlander Sandy Fleming.  Sandy has been
working really hard on that one for a long time.  Another splendid Scots
resource is our Andy Eagle's
(http://www.scots-online.org/), and there are others.

Folks,

Whilst it is true that the vast majority of "big" words in English are of
Romance and Greek origin, I feel it bears emphasizing that it would be
overly simplistic to label only Latin/Greek words as "foreign = difficult"
and only Germanic words as "native = easy." Numerous latinate words have
come to be very basic to the Modern English lexicon, while many words of
Germanic origin are archaic or semi-archaic and have come to be associated
with elevated style and are considered difficult by many, mostly because
they are rarely used (perhaps because they are too specialized) and often
sound poetic. Examples of the latter are "behoove," "bedraggle," "bequeath,"
"eventide," "wrought," "wright," "wight," "outspan," "morrow," "weft,"
"woof," "swain," "widdershins" ~ "withershins," "withe," "withy," "sallow,"
"wivern," "wittol," "yammer" and "yare." On the other hand, latinate words
like the following are considered commonplace: "place," "face," "journey,"
"tour," "air," "music," "suppose," "library," "common," "community,"
"congregation," "interrogation," "investigation," "dissatisfied,"
"abstinence," "establishment," "abnormal" and "administrative." I hardly
think any of these are truly feared among native speakers, not even among
the extremely hippopotomonstrosesquippedaliophobic ones.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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