LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.02.10 (01) [E]

Thu Feb 10 16:58:28 UTC 2005

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.02.09 (02) [E]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>That got me to thinking about how our training material would sound if it
were written in Germanic side of our tongue.  It seems like it would have a
weird sound, but would be fully understandable.<

Wouldn't a Roget's Thesaurus do this for you. It will have words listed
with both Latinate and Germanic sources, surely?

Heather

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From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Hi Criostóir and all

Criostóir, you wrote :

"I understand the grammar would be very different for
the reasons you
describe, and presumably the Middle English vowel
shift would not have
taken
place either."

I understand that the grammar would probably have been
very different, but I can't really see why the great
vowel shift wouldn't have taken place. A similar shift
as far as I know wasn't underway in French at the
time, and since the shift started in the 15th century,
the active influence of Norman French was reaching an
end. Also similar (if lesser) shifts have occurred in
High German, Dutch, Swedish and Norwegian and these
didn't have the same influences as English. And not to
mention that originally Norman French words have also
undergone the shift (although of course none spring to
mind at the moment to prove my point - oh yeah -
prove!)

I think we can claim the vowel shift as an purely
English (i.e. not Norman French influenced)
development.

Also I think most of the inflections were already on
their way out before the Normans reached England,
although this was obviously reinforced by the
prevalence of prepositions in French, so I'm not sure
how free exactly word order was just before they came.

I'd be interested to hear what makes you think that
the vowel shift might be Norman influenced.

Gary

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From: Dutch Matters <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: Lexicon/Translations

Hi, Ron, Arthur, Mark and Gavin.

I have been following your conversation about how difficult it is to
translate from one idiom to another.

That is what makes us, bi- or poly-linguists, such odd people. Not only do
we have two or more sets of dictionaries on file, we know the different
feelings that go with words that are supposed to mean the same thing. Take
for instance the difference between

[AE[ living room and [D] huiskamer. You live differently in a living room
than in a huiskamer, you are a different person.

We are multiple personalities. This schizoid duality ( Thanks for the image
Arthur ) is not imaginary, but most of us manage to separate one from the
other. I think of it as a drawer mentality. You either put socks on from one
drawer or from the other and only after several glasses of wine too many, do
you find yourself wearing a “polkadotted” and a plaid sock.

Some things can indeed be better said than in one language than in another.
Each of our languages has its own essence and its own precision. No wonder
that it does not matter from which language you start, the translation is
always longer than the original. This is especially true translating between
two highly idiomatic languages like Dutch and English.

If you look at the Anglo-Saxon vocabulary in modern English, the words
represent a much more organic and democratic, much less hierarchic and
“administrative” (for lack of a better word), part of life compared to those
taken from the Romance languages. I imagine the mediaeval speakers of
Norman-Saxon as the computer literate of their age. Who knows, maybe they
were true zygotes. I know my children are…….

De groeten.

Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong

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From: Peter Snepvangers <snepvangers at optushome.com.au>
Subject: Lexicon

From:  R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon
Lowlanders,
Here are a few Germanic-based Scots words that have latinate English
equivalents:
kail (soup)
keek (glance)
kist (coffin)

Hello Reinhard and Lowlands folk,
Loved these examples but it made me think of the word Kist. I can see the
link above where kist is coffin as I understand it to be a box. I have seen
kist used in Dutch as for example Geldkist (moneybox). I have also seen kast
used in Dutch as for example Brandkast (strongbox). The more common word I
remember is Doos or Doosje (box). Are there any liguistic rules of why or
when kist or kast or doos are to be, or have been, used? What would the
equivalent word or words be in Limburgs and west Frisian?
Cheers
Peter Snepvangers
snepvangers at optushome.com.au

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From:  R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

G'day, Pete!

In Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _kist_ (or _doden-kist_) is also one of the
words for 'coffin' (besides _sarg_ or _sark_), not a disparaging or jocular
one like German _Kiste_ would be in this context (in place of normal
_Sarg_).

Besides that:

German  =  Low Saxon  :  English
Kiste    =   kist (Kist)  : box, case, chest, coffer, crate (larger that the
following)
Schachtel =  schachtel (?) : carton (box), box (usually made of carton or
paper)
Kasten  =   kassen (Kassen)  : case, strongbox, chest
Dose    =  doos' (Doos) : box, can, tin (usually made of metal, and smaller)
Büchse  = _büks_ (Büx, Büchs) : box, can, tin

* LS _büks_ (Büx, Büchs) also 'pants', 'trousers'

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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