LL-L "Etymology" 2005.02.12 (01) [E]

Sat Feb 12 21:46:03 UTC 2005

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Dutch Matters <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: etymology? and meaning

Hi Lowlanders, The Dutch word for cardboard box is “de doos”. My
etymological dictionary tells me that it came about as a container for a
dose of medicine. My gut tells me that a more logical explanation would be
as container for a dozen items. Does anybody have any ideas about that?

Can anybody tell me what was the origin of the counting system with base 12.
English money used to be base twelve. The “Huns” were named after family
groupings of 10 x 12. It must be old, otherwise we would not have 12
disciples.

Totally unrelated, but for you Saxon speakers: Do I remember right that a
“kadolstermannetjen” is a “winterkoninkje?

And last but not least: Does anybody know from which language the following
expression was taken?
“Smiet ie daal” (Dutch ortography) It means something like “take a load
 off”………

Thanks for the help. Jacqueline BdJ [Bungenberg de Jong]

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From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.02.11

Mainei liobothon dalalandarjes!

Heather, Ron and others have discussed origins of "Schachtel" , related to
"Satchel" and in so doing, they have opened Pandora's little treasure box of
lowlands Germanic history.

As Heather pointed out, her research led her to Italian, hence "scatola"
nowadays, and a German "Schattulle" that seldom appears in modern times,
although it thrived in the Aufklaerung, or Enlightenment.

She --or youall-- is on the button with the Gothic. In Wulfila's Gothic text
of the first 4 books of the New Testament (Codex Argenteus), "skatts"
appears as a word for coin or money, even as specific currency (Denarii),
e.g., "thri hund skatte".

The Gothic diminutive was "Skattula", meaning little treasure container.
Modern cognates include German "Schatz", and both Lowlands and Northern
Germanic all use variants, mostly to denote tax and treasuries. In English,
we still have "scot-free" from the Nieuw Amsterdam (recently changed to New
York, I hear) expression for "tax-free".

I am working on a Gothic (more Ostro- than Visi-) reconstruction of your
wren tale as fast as I and my severely limited abilities can. I will
sheepishly slip it under the door of some of you out there in Lowland, as
well as some specific Gothic experts, in an attempt to do something
amazingly thorough yet quite irrelevant. But fun.

Aflet mei maineim skuldan af filuwauhrdeis
(forgive me my sin of wordiness).

Arthur

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From: Þjóðríkr Þjóðreksson <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: Etymology

>From:  heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.02.11 (04) [E]
>
>Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
> >I don't have a German etymological
>dictionary within reach right now.  So your guess is as good as mine,
>probably better.<
>
>My Sprach Brockhaus  has  for 'Schachtel'  ital aus got   MA        ( for
>italienisch aus gotisch   Mittelalter)  ?????????????
>
>Heather
>
>----------
>
>From:  R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Etymology
>
>Hi, Heather!
>
>I guess you copied and pasted the text (above), but some of it (the
>essential parts?) got lost.  Perhaps those were graphics that were stripped
>away by the server.  Too bad!  You've made me curious.
>
>Oh, and you quoted *me* there.
>
>Regards,
>Reinhard/Ron

I have the real version of the book, and although hard to read (with the
old-fashioned German letters) I read the same:

[ital. aus got.; spätes MA.]

The only thing that comes near, in my Gothic dictionary, is skafts
http://penguin.pearson.swarthmore.edu/~scrist1/scanned_books/tiff/goth_heyne/b0302.tiff
(which is probably indeed the cognate of shaft)

Why can't it just be a normal German word immediately evolving from
Germanic? I cannot find a word similar to schachtel in any Italian
dictionary

 [Diederik Masure]

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From:  R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hoi, Jacqueline!

Thanks for the interesting posting and questions (above)!

That's an interesting theory regarding _doos_ and "dozen"!  I like it, am
also familiar with the "tribal" counting (that still applied in Central Asia
until recently), but I doubt there is a connection.

"Dose" (= "dosis") reached English from Middle or Old French (_dose_),
derived from Latin _dosis_ which again is derived from Greek δόσις _dósis_,
a noun of action derived from the verb διδόναι _didónai_ 'to give' > 'to
administer' (cf., _gift_ 'poison' as a "given" = "administered" dose of
lethal medication ...).

Remember also that German _Dose_ (and in extension _dose_ ~ _doos'_ in Low
Saxon of Germany) usually (and supposedly originally) implies a small(ish)
box made of metal.  This includes pillboxes but came to be extended to
cans/tins.  Perhaps Dutch _doos_ is an extension to containers made of
materials other than metal.
If there were any connection with "dozen" (< Latin _duodecim_, cf. Provençal
_dotzena_), then I would expect the German form to have a /ts/ (<z>) in it
(because of /dutsend/ <Dutzend> 'dozen', thus something like *_Dutze_).

> “Smiet ie daal” (Dutch ortography) It means something like “take a load
> off”………

I assume it's Low Saxon (_smieten_ = Dutch _smijten_, German _schmeißen_,
English "to smite").  So it's literally "Throw you(rself) down!".  It rings
a very vague bell.  I may have heard or read in a more easterly dialect,
assumedly as _Smyt dy daal_ (<Smiet di daal> [smi:t(d)i"dQ:l]).  I would
understand it right away in context as a casual equivalent of _Ga sitten!_
(<Gah sitten> [gQ:"zIt=n] "Go (to) sit") 'Take a seat!'

Thanks for bringing that one up!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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