LL-L "Language treatment" 2005.01.22 (05) [E]

Sun Jan 23 07:44:39 UTC 2005

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From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Language treatment" 2005.01.22 (03) [E/LS/German]

> From: Kevin Caldwell <kcaldwell31 at comcast.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2005.01.21 (05) [E]
>
>> From: CrÃostÃ³ir Ã“ Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
>> Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2005.01.21 (02) [E]
>>
>> I find many other usages hideous, too, so I might as well get them
>> all out
>> in one go. Reading the Australian papers online I see "telco" (a sort of
>> contraction / abbreviation / garbling of "telecommunications company", I
>> think) imported from the United States, and I have seen similar
>> abbreviations such as "mindef" and "singov" (for "Ministry of
>> Defence" and
>> Singaporean Government) in Singaporean English and "legco" (for
>> "Legislative
>> Council") in Hong Kong English.
>
> I think these shortenings are called "portmanteau words".  These sorts of
> words are quite common in Russian: "komsomol" for "kommunisticheskiy
> sovet
> molodezhi" ("communist youth league"); "MinFin" for "Ministerstvo
> Finansov"
> (Ministry of Finance").  They are also fairly common in American
> government
> circles: SECDEF for Secretary of Defense; NAVSECGRUACT for Naval Security
> Group Activity, etc. (they seem to be really popular in the US Navy).
> I've
> also seen things like "telco" in the US.  And of course they are a common
> way of forming the names of companies (e.g., Qualcomm) and other
> organizations (e.g., Interpol).
>
> Kevin Caldwell
>
My understanding is that a portmanteau word is formed with the beginning
of one word and the end of another, not the beginnings of two words

BReakfast + lUNCH = brunch
SMoke + fOG = smog
MOtor (car) + hoTEL = motel
EDUcation + enterTAINMENT = edutainment

David Barrow

----------

From: Mike Morgan <Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp>
Subject: LL-L "Language treatment" 2005.01.22 (03) [E]

Beste Sandy et al.,

> Sounds like they're really butchering the language? I mean borrowing from
spoken Japanese
> as a matter of pronciple is hardly going to produce signs that can be used
with JSL grammar, is it?

I am of two minds when it comes to borrowing. First, as a(n) historical
linguist, I know that borrowing is a natural linguistic process. And often
an enriching one; look at English, or Japanese. So, for instance, in
Japanese we also have, in addition to the pure-Japanese å±±ç™»ã‚
'yamanobori' "mountain climbing" ç™»å±± 'tousan' "ditto", with exactly the same
characters, the difference being the syntax of the compound:
Japanese in the case of the former and Chinese in the case of the latter.
And similar examples are very numerous. So while it was probably "confusing"
for the first "Tanaka Takashi on the street" that heard it, now both
structures are a part of the word syntax of Japanese, and everybody (?) uses
both all the time (though I imagine that the closer you are to the average
"Tanaka Takashi on the street", the less you use the "Chinese" word syntax
(even a thousand years after it was introduced into the langauge)).

On the other hand, it does often pose a threat to the language itself.
Taking the same example for JSL, signing the Japanese order would be
grammatically incomprehensible. And for the specific example, where there is
in Japanese as well TWO choices, I have never seen anyone sign CLIMB
MOUNTAIN. But to take another example, å…¥å¦ 'nyuugaku' "school entrance",
spoken (and written) Japanese only has the "Chinese", many JSL signers
borrow from Japanese and use the "Chinese" word syntax ... which DOES NOT
mesh with JSL synatx AT ALL (in this case).

And for all those Lowlanders who are less than interested in SL debate, in
the LL world the same thing occurs.
As an example, once when visiting my professor-mentor, CH van Schooneveld
(RIP) at his home in Haute Savoie, ahving just flown from Tokyo to Geneva by
KLM I brought with me a
copy of "Volkskrant" (which is always MY Dutch newspaper of preference ...
given my general political leanings), he said (and I paraphrase, since it
has been almost 5 years since the conversation, as well as translate, since
I believe we were speaking Russian at the moment): "Thanks, but when I want
to read an English-language newspaper I read the "X" (I forget what
newspaper he mentioned)" -- the implcation being that the language of
"Volkskrant" is so influenced by English in lexicon and syntax as to not be
Dutch anymore (at least to one
twice transplanted Dutchman).

> I think the newscaster etc need to realise that sign languages are often
very large - certainly I would
> expect this of a language as important as JSL, and if they were proper
researchers they'd be going
> out in the field and finding out what signs were actually being used for
everything.

Yes, but to them, even if they do go out in the field, it usually means
surveying their friends and
acquaintances inside the Yamanote Line in Tokyo. For those of us who do not
live in Tokyo -- and I do believe that's most probably an overwhelming
majority of users of JSL -- our "proud" of our sign langauge (it's OUR sign
language too! ... at least if THEY insist on calling it
Nihon-Shuwa "JAPANESE SL" (last I looked, Osaka was also in Japan).

(P.S. I think in the Japanese Association of Sign Linguistics I am the only
one doing (and maybe the only one who has EVER done) extensive JSL dialect
research ... and it is NOT a small group, and it will have it's 30th annual
conference this summer. Presentations I have seen over the past 10 years all
deal with "standard" JSL ... except for 2 presentaions which dealt with
regional variation in the signs for a single place name.)

> I just started my B(ritish)SL Level 3 course today.

Good luck. I am totally "self-taught" (a TOTAL misnomer, since every Deaf
person I have ever talked too has taught me), but NOT because I think that's
the best way to go, nor easiest, but in my case there were (and are) no
other options. In Japan all serious SL instruction focusses on
training interpreters, and I have NO desire (and the wrong personality type)
to be one of those (though I have and do interpret for friends at an
informal level regularly). On the positive side of being "self-taught" it
means my signing is NOT biased towards Tokyo JSL, nor Signed Japanese, but
is a fusion of what real Deaf people actually use. And that is often NOT
taught in the classroom (though I know in the US, and I imagine in the UK as
well, it is much more the case than here).

> ... it's quite common to ask
> what the sign for something is, and nobody knows ("just fingerspell it"),
> while in a far-flung group like this there seems to be hardly a word in
> English you can ask about that somebody doesn't know a sign for, or a
> grammatical feature that makes the word unnecessary.

Ditto JSL.

> In fact there's very often more than one sign for any given noun,
adjective
> or verb. Sometimes this is due to dialectical variation: just as English
has
> "holiday", "vacation" and "break", BSL has signs, all meaning "holiday"
> corresponding roughly to "pack", "idle-partying" (two variants) and
> "hotelling"

Ditto JSL (and in fact for the very term "holiday" ... at least when talking
about "official holiday"). When I give presentations at the JASL
conferences, I always use regional signs (though not 100%, because while I
want to make a "political" statement, the interpreters have more than
enough problem interpreting "standard" JSL).

> On the other hand again, I
> was suprised to find the Sunderland woman using a different sign for
"car" -
> instead of the simple "hands-on-steering-wheel" sign that I thought must
be
> universal, she used a sign like
"hands-on-steering-wheel-fingers-on-lights-
> and-wipers-controls"!

In JSL, if you ASK what the sign is for car, you're always told
"hands-on-steering-wheel" (clearly iconic, and not a case of borrowing), but
if you watch sign discourse, you will see, in addition to that sign,
frequent use of a compound: "hands-on-steering -wheel" +
"vehicle-classifier" ... and
in synatctical positions where it is clear that the vehicle-classfier  is
NOT being used as the incorporated subject of a verb.

> ... You can imagine how dangerous
> it is for a deaf person in hospital if the interpreter doesn't fully
> understand everything they're saying

A REAL problem for many of my friends ... doing dialect research means
mostly working with people over 65. Not only do they sign Kobe or Osaka SL
dialect, but they sign pre-WW2
Kobe and Osaka dialect (or at least Sl dialect influenced by the older
signs). So it is not uncommon to be in a converstaion involving an older
Deaf person and a local interpreter (i.e. someone NOT trained in Tokyo, and
presumably familiar with the regional dialect) where I step in an interpret
for the interpreter. (Strange not only because I am a hearing Gaijin
(Japanese for "foreigner", but often with a fairly strong degree of "who
doesn't belong here"), but I moved to
Kansai (Western Japan, the Osaka-Kobe-Kyoto area) just 5 years ago. As far
as SL is concerned, I "grew up" in Eastern Japan.

> ... professional interpreting ethics forbid an interpreter from
> interfering in the communication in any way: they should only translate
> exactly what's said as accurately as possible. Problems arise here because
> of the fact that the hearing person (eg a judge) doesn't understand that
> sign languages are visually specific where in oral languages visual
> information is often derived from context.

To say nothing of the vast amount of cultural cultural assumptions that go
unsaid by both parties of any hearing-Deaf conversation. Does an interpreter
"add" this unsaid information to convey what the person is "really" saying,
or not?

> Of course, your description the newscasters' way of going about their
business
> for JSL is rather the opposite of all this - instead of trying to get at
the heart of
> how JSL is really used, they're making up a fantasy language, causing more
> confusion - I think!

Yes, and many of my Deaf friends NEVER watch the SL news ... largely (though
not solely) for that reason.

But the problem is really deeper than that. When I started JSL study, NHK
Educational TV had just started their first JSL course (which continues to
this day ... and the first Deaf instructor was in fact one of the
newscasters I mentioned ... it's how she got the newscasting job, I expect),
and the name of the program was (is? I don't know I don't pay attention any
more): ã¿ã‚“ãªã®æ‰‹è©± 'minna no shuwa' "everyone's sign language". A nice title, and
the desired image of "I too can learn sign language"; great apeal to the
potential hearing learner. BUT, when you get into the real world you soon
learn (or should; many learners of JSL never do) that there are MANY
different JSLs: not only dialect variants, or age sociolects, but "hard of
hearing JSL", and "late deafened JSL" ... and "deaf but not DEAF JSL" ...
and "interpreter's JSL". And if you do distinguish in your mind which is
which and which you should use in a given situation with a given person, you
are not obly confused but confusing.

In the US I believe there are different interpreter credentials for ASL
interpreting, Sign ENglish interpretting, finger-spelling interpeting,
gesture-base interpreting ... at least I have heard to
that effect. In Japan, as with so many things, "one size fits all". What
about the UK?

And so part of the problem with the NHK news, and interpreters, etc, is that
the audience is imagined as "hearing impaired" ... i.e. not necessarily
Deaf. And this allows the person signing
to be "lazy" ... which often means to rely on their mother tongue (in the
case of  hearing interpreters ... there being NO Deaf interpreters in
Japan), and perhaps a bit too much on the newscript Japanese in the case of
Deaf newscasters.

(And I am perhaps coming across a bit harsh on the Deaf newscaster I have in
mind. In fact I consider them (since there are only 2 Deaf newscasters,
oneof each gender, the plural keeps
identities confidential?) more than an acquaintance, though perhaps less
than a friend. And I personally have no problem understanding their on-air
signing (which differs not inconsiderably from their off-air signing); I am
just summarizing a number of comments / criticisms I have heard from Deaf
people.

Hope this discussion is too boring to the non-signing members of the list.
I'll to be less of a lurker when it comes to LL related discussions, and
maybe more of a lurker when it comes to SL related discussions. I CAN be a
bit windy on the latter. (Smile)

Met hartelijke groeten,

Mike Morgan
Mike.Morgan at mb3.seikyou.ne.jp
Kobe City University of Foreign Studies
Japan

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