LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.07.28 (12) [E/LS/Missingsch]

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.07.28 (07) [E]

Karl-Heinz wrote.
> People from the North especially from what I think is Eastphalia for
example
> Hannover often proudly say: "Wir kommen aus einem dialektfreien Gebiet,
bei
> uns spricht man das beste Hochdeutsch." Could be, but its an illusion to
> believe a standard language can be free of dialect/sociolect etc. For me
> this would be a "Konservendeutsch", German out of a tin.

Yes, our family barber (in Southern Lower Saxony, west of Göttingen) told me
only last week that he thinks people in our region speak the purest High
German - in a local accent you could cut with a knife! I told him that,
since I moved away and came back, I had realised just how much of a local
idiom people here speak (I hail from this area myself), and I had a hard
time making him believe me. For one thing, I really have to learn again not
too say "Guten Tag" around here, lest I want to sound all snooty and
distant - it's "Guntach!"

But then, I suppose that even Americans who buy "groashries" (that Luke was
me, Ben!) live with the fond illusion that they are speaking purest standard
English...

Gabriele Kahn

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.07.28 (07) [E]

Are you aware that in both examples, <s> is pronounced like <sh> because a
<y> sound is following it?
In my Dutch ears, Elvis' <Yes you are> "yeS-You" is already pronounced
as "yeshou", and your <ASU> "ay eS-You" as "ay eshou".
In Dutch, where we spell <j> for English <y>, the normal way to write the
<sh> sound is indeed <sj>. E.g. <sjokken> ["SOk@(n)] to jog, would be
spelled "shocka" in English, <doosje> ["douS@] little box, would be
E "doasha", and <hoe was jouw dag op school?> [hu "vaS@ dax Op sxo:l], how
was your day in school, as "who voshow dokh up skhoal" or so.

Ingmar

>Ben Bloomgren wrote:
>Luke (I'm not sure which one),
>
>«And Elvis!! "You're the devil in disguise... oh yesh you are..." -
sounds a
>bit like Mooch the cat from the great cartoon "Mutts".»
>
>Here in Arizona, we say many final s's with sh. I go to Arizona State
>University, and its obvious abbreviation is ASU. However, most people who
>do not go here will say "A esh U." I used to say that until I started to
>attend classes down there.

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From: Karl-Heinz Lorenz <Karl-Heinz.Lorenz at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.07.28 (07) [E]

Hi Ron, Hi Ingmar!

Ingmar, thank you for your thorough explanation of the g-j palatalization in
Netherlandic. About this ingvaeonic aspect: "yesterday" must be "jester(e)n"
in Brandenburgish, "yellow" "jelb" or even "jelw". Another example: English
"yield" etymologically matches dutch/german Geld. Found:
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=yield : Etymology:
Middle English, from Old English gieldan; akin to Old High German geltan to
pay

Ron, thank you for your affirming my comments on what I wrote about syntax
and melody in Missingsch.

About Missingsch today: Do you you think that the comedy-series "Dittsche -
das wirklich wahre Leben" is in Missingsch dialect?
http://www.ard.de/boulevard/comedy-satire/oli-dittrich-dittsche/-/id=7702/nid=7702/did=279166/10jtt5c/

I've found a written example:

Dittsche: "Ingo, weissu eigentlich, was die Queen in das goldene Buch der
Stadt oingetragn hat?"
Ingo:       "Nee, keine Ahnung.
Dittsche: "Ich vermude was, ich sach dir das."
Ingo:       "Ja, was hat sie denn nu da eingetragen?"
Dittsche:  "Mein Mann schlächt mich, bidde helfen Sie mia!"
Dittsche:  "Das sach ich dir, das hat sie da roingeschrieben. Der Philipp is
ja auch 'n reines Rauhbein, ein reiiiiiiiines Rauhbein, ich sach dir das!"

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2005.07.28 (09) [E]

Hi, Ben,

you wrote:

> Ma is one of those syllables that is its own dictionary in which
> all
> distinctions are made by the relative pitch of the syllable. If you say
> the
> wrong one, you will be in gigantuan trouble!

This reminds me to the use of LS: 'tou'; E: 'to and too', G: 'zu' und
'zu...(anything; prepos.)'.

There's 'tau' (like 'wow'), meaning 'get on, hurry on' and 'tou', meaning
'too (much)', 'to' (G: 'zu...'). Further special meanings you have to
recognize whithin the context- there are some more of them.
So simple as a word- so different its special meanings.

I fear this exceptionally in the spoken form recognizable diversity to be
lost within a short time, similar to our 'Schleifton', as Ron is foresaying.
But there's hope: my own son (10) already is able to hear (a far way from
being able to speak!!) the slight varieties, though he is just at the
beginning to learn our LS.

Hope for WIKIplatt, at least- at the end there could be a slight number of
people to survive and being able to recognize and damnate for _ever_ mainly
their dilettantism! Verdammten, greesigen Schiet! Keyn Hand an tou krygen,
an dysse 'Kleingeister', de sick woll alleyn sylbst wat wysen wöllt.
Therefrom is outspread the main danger for our LS, as I fear.

Greutens/Regards

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Gabriele:

> Yes, our family barber (in Southern Lower Saxony, west of Göttingen) told 
> me
> only last week that he thinks people in our region speak the purest High
> German

Whenever I hear the word "pure" in connection with "language" I whip out my 
giant salt shaker, the one with the big holes.

> About Missingsch today: Do you you think that the comedy-series 
> "Dittsche -
> das wirklich wahre Leben" is in Missingsch dialect?

Nah! What would *I* know. I'm a clueless, out-of-touch emigrant, certainly 
am when it comes to the German media (with the exception of Deutsche Welle 
TV with its commercials thinly disguised as programs and making its poor 
anchors hold a DW sign and looking like total geekmeisters).

I'm all for featuring Missingsch in the media under two conditions: (1) that 
it not be "sold" as "Plattdeutsch" (as it used to be in the early days of 
broadcasting Ohnsorg plays nationally), and (2) that it not be routinely 
used to mock and stereotype people.  British TV has come a long way lately, 
in my opinion.  These days dialects are used far less to stereotype people. 
In British TV plays you get more and more characters that are well educated 
and still don't speak "Standard English."

Jonny:

> Hope for WIKIplatt, ... damnate for _ever_ mainly their dilettantism!
> Verdammten, greesigen Schiet!

Leo, leg dich!  Laat de jungs man!

Reinhard/Ron

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