LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.07.29 (04) [D/E]
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Fri Jul 29 16:03:02 UTC 2005
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties
Beste Ingmar (en ook Diederik),
You wrote:
> From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.07.25 (13) [E]
>
> Voor Standaard-Nederlands is dat niet helemaal waar, er zijn natuurlijk
> wel inheemse NL woorden met sj- aan het begin, bv <sjouwen> ["Sauw@(n)],
> <sjokken> ["SOk@(n)], <sjorren> ["SOr@(n)] maar die zijn inderdaad
> zeldzaam.
Quite right. It's not a far stretch to consider "Frisian" as 'inheems' I
guess, ;-) , 'cause the examples you gave are all of Frisian descent.
In Brabantish, we also have:
_sjokken_ : "to suck" (E)
_sjik_: "goatee" (note that the name for a goat, "Ziege" (G), became the
name for a beard, like the one that a buck has...seems the North
predominantly has "Ziege" (and the like), whereas the South has
"Goas(s)" (G) (and cognates)...the Rhine seems to be the border in the
West...and strangely enough, (standard) English follows the South this
time!)
_sjoempeln_, _sjoenkeln_: "struikelen" (D), "to stumble" (E)
_sjo(e)p_: "top" (van een vinger), also as a verb _sjo(e)ppen_ "to
poll", "to trim" (E)
_sjèèt_: "staart" (D), "tail" (E)
_sjippeke_: "kuiken" (D), "chick" (E)
_sjloek_: "slok" (D), "gulp" (E)
_sjmo(j)ster_: "snoep" (D), "sweets", "candy", also _sjmo(j)stern_: "eat
candy", "to muck", "to grime"
_sjut_: female softy
_zjabbern_: "sabbelen" (D), but also "to drizzle" (E)
_sjippen_, _sjoepen_: "to steal" (French has "chiper" as well, but they
loaned it from Germanic: "chip" (E), Old Saxon "kip", post, so the
question remains when this word was introduced/created)
_sjoenk_: "homp" (D), "lump, chunk!" (E) (could be of Romance origin
ultimately, that's why I set it apart)
Kind greetings,
Luc Hellinckx
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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.07.28 (12) [E/LS/Missingsch]
Perhaps a few thoughts about Brandeburgian Low Saxon and a possible Slavonic
substratum: I am not certain whether there is any Slavonic influence upon
Brandeburg-Low Saxon apart from the place names because the typical
j-pronunciation for g is present in many Low Saxon dialects and, of course,
Dutch and Flemish, and used to be present in the dialect of
Rendsborg-District as well as place names show such as Jevenstedt which used
to be spelled with a G in early records. So the Brandeburgian-j for e.g
"juut" instead of "gut" might simply have to do with preserving an older
pronunciation. When I listen to people from the Northern Harz region they
sound already suspiciously like Brandeburgians so I suppose that
Brandeburgian is just a colonial extension of Eastphalian with an obvious
Flemish influence from those colonists. Moreover, we should be able to
detect a variety of Celtic words and pronunciation in English but the celtic
influence is almost negable and I think s! omething similar happened to
those Slavonic areas which were colonized by Low Saxon speakers. On the
other hand there is evidence of a Soenderjysk substratum in the Low Saxon
dialect of Angeln in Slesvig, in particular the pronunciation for "bek"
(stream) which is pronounced "beek" in Rendsborg but "beck" in Angeln,
similar to Scandinavian "bæk". There was also evidence for the old Prussian
language in East Prussian Low Saxon, e.g "marjellche" for "girl". In the end
the best way to check for a possible slavonic substratum in Brandenburg,
Meekelnborg and Vorpommern is to study Sorbian and compare it to the local
Low Saxon variants but for this I know to little Sorbian as being capable of
that. If we have a Sorbian speaking subscriber he might be able to help us?
Regards
Helge
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From: Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.07.28 (07) [E]
Re Ben Bloomgren:
I also live in Arizona, and I must say, I haven't heard "a esh u",
only "a ess u".
Though, most people here do say "GROSH-ries". I like it when people
say "GROSS-err-ease"... and "al-you-MINI-yum"...
What irritates me is that the dialect of Phoenix is so annoyingly
transitional between the speech of California and that of the
Northeast. Sometimes we distinguish between the "cot" vowel and the
"father" vowel, but it's a weak distinction; other times we don't.
In fact, I pronounce "caught" with the "cot" vowel, and "cot" with the
"father" vowel. Hmm.
And what is it with many adults saying AD-ult, but kids always saying
ad-ULT?
Oh, and is there any dialect where record (verb) and record (noun) are
pronounced identically?
Mark
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From: Þjóðríkr Þjóðreksson <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.07.28 (12) [E/LS/Missingsch]
>From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
>Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.07.28 (07) [E]
<doosje> ["douS@] little box, would be
>E "doasha", and <hoe was jouw dag op school?> [hu "vaS@ dax Op
>sxo:l], how
>was your day in school, as "who voshow dokh up skhoal" or so.
>Ingmar
Why is doosje with [ou] and school with [o:]? I thought one either
pronounced both with the [o:] as is generally done in Belgian Standard Dutch
and still by some people on Netherlandic tv (although they are getting less)
or both as [ou] as is the general Netherlandic pronunciation in normal
speech? (apart from /ee/oo/ before an /r/ maybe).
Diederik Masure
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and knowledge about Eastern Low Saxon,
Helge.
> In the end the best way to check for a possible slavonic substratum in
> Brandenburg, Meekelnborg and Vorpommern is to study Sorbian and
> compare it to the local Low Saxon variants but for this I know to little
> Sorbian as being capable of that. If we have a Sorbian speaking
> subscriber he might be able to help us?
I'd be (pleasantly) surprised if we had one. My Sorbian is too scanty also.
However, only the northernmost dialects of Lower Sorbian are of direct
relevance, namely to the southernmost Brandenburg dialects of Low Saxon.
Upper Sorbian (which is quite different for US) is of far less relevance,
since it has always been outside the Low Saxon sphere. Sorbian is no more
relevant to the Low Saxon dialects elsewhere -- including those of
Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania -- than, say, Polish or Czech.
In Western Pomerania, now extinct Pomeranian varieties used to be spoken.
The only surviving relatives are the Kashubian varieties that survive in
Poland, since they are considered the easternmost surviving remnants of
Pomeranian. Pomeranian, like Polish, belongs to the Lekhitic group of
Western Slavonic, is thus quite different from Sorbian (which makes up its
own Sorabic/Sorbian group). To study Pomeranian influences in Low Saxon you
need to look at Kashubian, (recently extinct) Slovincian (considered by some
part of Kashubian) and also at fragments of Western Pomeranian in documents
and place names.
Pomeranian is closely related to Polabian, which is also Lekhitic, is now
extinct and used to be spoken in Mecklenburg, Brandenburg, Saxony-Anhalt as
well in the eastern part of Lower Saxony (up to the eastern borders of
Hamburg and Hanover) and in the southeastern part of Schleswig-Holstein.
Little information is available about Polabian, with the exception of some
descriptions, small text fragments and word lists of Draveno-Polabian, the
Hanover Wendland (Luechow-Dannenberg) on the eastern Lunenburg Heath.
It seems to be Polabian that left trace words in North Saxon dialects, such
as _doens_ (<Dööns> ~ <Döönz> [d9:n(t)s]) 'living-room', 'parlor' (<
*_dörnicë_ < *_dvornica_ referring to the place by the (front) door,
*_dvor_).
Practically all speakers of Polabian and Western Pomeranian switched to Low
Saxon. This applies also to many Kashubs and Slovincians. Much like Sorbs
still do these days, they had two, three or even four versions of their
names before they lost their native Slavonic varieties. For instance, one
of the greatest Slovincian writers, language activists and Lutheran
publicist had the Slovinvian name Michał Mostnik and the translated Low
Saxon name Michael Brüggeman (as well as Latin Pontanus, 1583-1654).
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
P.S.: I'm not sure if the Slavs of Denmark were Pomeranians or Polabians.
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