LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.06.11 (01) [E/LS]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 11.JUN.2005 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Language varieties

Beste Jonny,

> > However, these days more and more people are unable to speak their
> > local dialect; rather are they using some sort of
> "middelspraak" which
> > is sometimes labelled a "regiolect". It's an artificial
> language that
> > has filtered out all the juicy bits from a dialect, extending and
> > generalizing phonetic and grammatical rules, meanwhile borrowing
> > almost the entire standard Dutch vocabulary. Sameness
> galore. Instead
> > of hundreds of dialects we now have 5 regiolects...at most.
> Woans meenst Du dat? Snackst Du van dat, wat vöör Diin eegen
> Flaam'sche Huusdöör is? Ick kann mii meist ne vöörstell'n,
> wat door, bii Jou, sou'n Bült verscheeden Munnoorten opp een
> lütt' Rebeed ween hevvt, tou sülverg'
> Tiid und vöör een langer' Stood? No Hunnerten tellt, gänzlich?
> Hett dat woll tou kriigen mit de poliit'sche Sünnerheeden,
> mit de Deelerey in Joun Eck van Zentral-Middel-Europa?

You're quite right that northern Belgium is indeed a small area. But also
bear in mind that it has always been relatively densely populated, compared
to other European regions. When I wrote "hundreds of dialects" I was
actually referring to the number of villages, townships and cities we have
here. I find it hard to define what exactly a dialect is, but I do know that
until mid 20th century,every little village (even hamlet!) had its own way
of speaking that was clearly different from the neighboring village. Within
seconds a citizen could tell which village/hamlet/street the other speaker
came from. Sure, they could usually understand each other very well, but if
the distance that separated them was more than 30 km, quite often, there
would be a lot of "noise in the signal". Especially if older people were
concerned. I'll give you an example: I once introduced a girl-friend (Ghent
native) to my grandmother (native Brabantish, 45 km from Ghent). My
girl-friend tried to speak standard Dutch as well as she could, because she
knew that otherwise my grandmother would surely not understand. But no
matter how well she did her best to come across, grandma did not understand
her slightly corrupt version of standard Dutch at all!

Politics (both secular and religious) have definitely played a role in all
this (different counties, different dioceses, at least 6 bigger cities with
a very diverse and different cultural history and more than our share of
foreign oppressors).
The landscape itself too, allows for more variability than what one would
normally expect on such a small surface: hills, polders, woodland,
heathland, marshland and riverfronts acting as some sort of linguistic
biotope. Compared to Northern and Western Dutchmen I also have the
impression that people living in the interior of the Lowlands are slightly
more home-loving. There used to be a website on which you could see the
geographic distribution of any Belgian family name. The picture was very
clearly one of an extremely tightknit society...but on a micro-level. Many,
if not most, families have lived for hundreds of years within a very small
range (a few dozens of km's).

> > Ah well...mathematically speaking, I would dare say that linguistic
> > diversity seems to be inversely proportional to the width of a
> > community's horizon...in general *s*.
> Na- wees vöörzichtig, Mann *s*! Door kannst' bii de Lüüd heel
> verkeert mit komen. Wenn ick dat recht begriipen dou- meenst
> Du an dennen Innen: minseer de 'Regiolecten', un de Lüüd
> waard klüftiger (or annersrümm)??!? Denn geiht dat mit dennen
> IQ jo woll düchdig no Booven, bii Dii sülvst un bii Diin Lüüd
> *s*!!!??? Man- kunn angoon, door is an dennen Innen wat
> Woorheit an ....

Mmm...slippery ground here *s*. Thanks anyway Jonny for your kind remark.
But I very much refrain from thinking there is any causality between
linguistic diversity per square km (or the rate with which it's changing) on
the one hand and intelligence (whatever that is *s*) on the other. I was
just trying to say that the more people move/travel, the more they seem to
think that communication is more important than promoting/defending their
own particularism. Alas...consequently, such people often then try to
"smoothen" their dialect and make it socially more acceptable...salonfähig.
Yes, I agree that both reflections don't have to be mutually exclusive...but
then again, we're all members of the Lowlands List...and most Lowlanders are
not...yet...*s*

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

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From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.09 (09) [E]

>denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
writes
> ...
>I cant repeat enough, that West-Flemish sounds extremely likely to
>Afrikaans, more than any other Dutch dialect.

Oddly enough, in the little bit of Cape architecture which I live and
breath (the use of muurankers), the buildings too have more
correspondence with the West-Flemish (and Walloon and bit of France
adjacent) areas than the do with the rest of the Lowlands.  Here (and
also in French Canada), the form is often a gracile S form (nothing like
the robust S form found in England, for those who know what I'm talking
about....)

I wonder if a significant part of the 'Huguenot' component of the
population were West-Flemish?

Of course, it's difficult - perhaps impossible - to talk usefully and
succinctly about ethnicity, religion and nationality in the Early Modern
period.

With best wishes to all,

Pat

--
Pat Reynolds
pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk
   "It might look a bit messy now,
                    but just you come back in 500 years time"
   (T. Pratchett)

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