LL-L "Pronomina" 2005.05.15 (04) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 15.JUN.2005 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: "Language varieties" [E]

> From: Ben J. Bloomgren <godsquad at cox.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.02 (10) [E]
>
> "thou and thee had given way to your..."
>
> Ron and all, when did English start to throw away its early modern ways
> and
> to go to you you you? It seems so sudden to me. I hear the KJV bible and
> Shakespeare in thees and thous, and I hear anything thereafter without
> them.

It's not as sudden as it seems, you just tend to be used to "you"'s and so
don't notice them as much. Looking at one of Cleopatra's speeches from the
play:

Nay, hear them, Antony:
Fulvia perchance is angry; or, who knows
If the scarce-bearded Caesar have not sent
His powerful mandate to YOU, 'Do this, or this;
Take in that kingdom, and enfranchise that;
Perform 't, or else we damn THEE.'

I'm not sure what this is - does Cleopatra refer to Mark Antony as "you"
while expecting Caesar to refer to him as "thee"? No, because in her very
next speech:

YOU must not stay here longer, your dismission
Is come from Caesar; therefore hear it, Antony.
Where's Fulvia's process? Caesar's I would say? both?
Call in the messengers. As I am Egypt's queen,
THOU blushest, Antony; and that blood of thine
Is Caesar's homager: else so thy cheek pays shame
When shrill-tongued Fulvia scolds. The messengers!

Perhaps Shakespeare was living at a time when both modes of speech were used
and he drew on both of them, perhaps following some principle, or perhaps
just for euphony?

Of course, you mustn't forget that however English may be taught in schools,
forms of "thee", "thy", "thou" are still used in some places in England.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

==============================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
======================================================================