LL-L "Grammar" 2005.03.07 (01) [E]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.03.05 (05) [E]

Roger wrote: "I concluded that there is an enormous amount of uncertainty as
regards the Simple Past Tense."
Something similar is true for some words in American English.  For example,
"swim."  We cannot or will not say "I have swum in Lake Travis many times."
It just sounds so weird that it sounds wrong!  Even though it's not.  We get
around it by saying something like "I have been swimming in Lake Travis many
times" or "I went swimming in Lake Travis many times."  I don't believe I've
ever hear anyone say "have swum" voluntarily.  You have to trick them into
saying it.  There's a similar (although not the same) confusion about
"drink."  To our ear "have drunk" just sounds odd.  You'll often hear "I
have drank" instead, or just "I drank" with no present perfect.  People will
use "have drank" without having to be forced into it, whereas with "have
swum" they just won't.

Mark Brooks

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From: Helge Willkowei <helge.willkowei at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.03.06 (04) [E]

> From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
> Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.03.05 (05) [E]
>
> Roger wrote/has written that in Belgium East Brabant the simple past tense
> is hardly used, and people normally use the present perfect for all past
> tenses.
> I know that in at least Afrikaans all past tense is formed with the
> present perfect construction 'hê ge...+infinitive' ek het gedoen, hy het
> geprobeer, ons het gekyk etc., which sound quite simple or even a bit
> primitive in Dutch ears, that are used to: ik heb gedaan/ik deed, hij
> heeft geprobeerd/hij probeerde, wij hebben gekeken/wij keken...
> Lit. translated the Afrikaans examples would be:
> I have do, he have try, us have look, for: I have done/I did, he (has)
> tried, we (have) looked. But Afr. preserved a few simple past forms: was,
> had, and maybe a few more I can't recall right now.
>
> In Yiddish text I noticed a lot of: ikh hob gamokht, and  er hot gazogt,
> too. Does it have simple past as well? Is there a difference with German?

Southern German dialects also lost the Simple Past and only have Present
Perfect constructions, except for modal verbs, to be and to have, which
occur in simple past. In colloquial German, the present perfect is much
more often used than simple past, also except for modal verbs, to be and
to have.

Munter!
Helge

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From:  R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

I need to add to Helge's statement above that the preterite (simple past) is
used only very sparingly, if at all, in most ordinary speech modes in Low
Saxon (Low German).  Its use tends to be confined to certain narrative
modes.  The same goes for Missingsch (i.e., German dialects on Low Saxon
substrates).  I would even go as far as the preterite is hardly ever used in
real Missingsch.  In extension, the preterite is usually avoided in everyday
spoken North German dialects that descended from Missingsch.

Ingmar, you are correct in assuming that Yiddish does not use preterite
forms.  In actual fact, I don't think the preterite even exists, certainly
not in ordinary language.

> ikh hob gamokht, and  er hot gazogt

That would be _Ikh hob gemokht_ and _Ikh hob gezogt_.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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