LL-L "Grammar" 2005.03.10 (03) [E]

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From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.03.06 (04) [E]


I seem to have caused a slight misunderstanding in connection with the
remarks I made about the use of the Simple Past and the Present Perfect in
East-Brabant. Perhaps I overstated my case or oversimplified the situation.
Let's put things straight. The Simple Past is used, be it that there seems
to be a preference for the Present Perfect. I wrote: "There are a
considerable number of  - mainly strong - verbs where the tense is
systematically although unconsciously avoided by native speakers. For these
verbs they automatically switch to the Present Perfect." After giving ample
thought to this statement I decided it might be better to leave out the word
"considerable". With the large majority of weak verbs the Simple Past does
not present any difficulties. With a number of strong verbs the Simple Past
either sounds weird/awkward to the speakers or is considered downright
impossible.
The Present Perfect Tense is used in 4 pretty well defined situations:
a. To denote a perfective meaning; e.g. /ich hem de tluëre afgewasse/ 'ik
heb de teljoren, borden afgewassen', meaning I'm done with it, the plates
are ready to be ranged in the cupboard. Another example: /en es  verongelukt
as ter naar huis reed/ 'hij is verongelukt als(=toen) hij naar huis reed'.
The Present Perfect stresses the result, and in the 2nd example the
irreparable character of the situation. The same sentence in the Past Tense
is perfectly possible: /en verongelukte as ter naar huis reed/ , which is
purely descriptive.
b. To indicate an action which takes place at an indefinite, unspecified
time in the past; e.g. /ich hem deë brief geschreven/ 'ik heb die brief
(wellicht niet lang geleden) geschreven'
c. Referring to an action taking place at a precise, clearly defined point
of time, in which case the verb is accompanied by an adverb of time or by a
time adjunct; e.g. /flei week hei ter ne nieve auto gekocht/ 'verleden week
heeft hij een nieuwe auto gekocht'.
d. To indicate past habits, e.g. /jarenlang heit er iedere zondag öleger
gespeld in de kerk/ 'jarenlang heeft hij iedere zondag orgel gespeeld in de
kerk'.

> From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
> Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.03.05 (05) [E]
>
> Roger wrote/has written that in Belgium East Brabant the simple past tense
> is hardly used, and people normally use the present perfect for all past
> tenses.
> I know that in at least Afrikaans all past tense is formed with the
> present perfect construction 'hê ge...+infinitive' ek het gedoen, hy het
> geprobeer, ons het gekyk etc., which sound quite simple or even a bit
> primitive in Dutch ears, that are used to: ik heb gedaan/ik deed, hij
> heeft geprobeerd/hij probeerde, wij hebben gekeken/wij keken...
> Lit. translated the Afrikaans examples would be:
> I have do, he have try, us have look, for: I have done/I did, he (has)
> tried, we (have) looked. But Afr. preserved a few simple past forms: was,
> had, and maybe a few more I can't recall right now.
>
> In Yiddish text I noticed a lot of: ikh hob gamokht, and  er hot gazogt,
> too. Does it have simple past as well? Is there a difference with German?
>
> Ingmar
>
> Roger Hondshoven schreeft/heeft geschreven:
>
> >I would like to add a note in connection with the use of this tense in
the
> >dialects I know (Flemish East-Babant). In the linguistic research I
> carried
> >out into these dialects it always struck me that the Simple Past Tense is
> >relatively scantily used. There are a considerable number of  - mainly
> >strong - verbs where the tense is systematically although unconsciously
> >avoided by native speakers. For these verbs they automatically switch to
> the
> >Present Perfect. When I tried to find out what the correct verbal form
was
> >for the Simple Past, I was met by incomprehension. I tried to entice them
> to
> >use the Simple Past by saying things like: 'Suppose this happened
> yesterday
> >or last week, what would you say then?" To no avail. They stubbornly went
> on
> >using the Present Perfect. Or they found a way to avoid the problem
> >altogether by resorting to the trick of paraphrasing the action, using a
> >kind of continuous tense like "Ze waren aan 't + infinitive". It's clear
> >that some Past Tense forms must sound very queer to them. When I insisted
> >that they  - they were elderly people with only limited formal
schooling -
> >should use the Simple Past they were flabbergasted. Even those who knew
> what
> >I meant by "Onvoltooid Verleden Tijd" were unable to give a
> straightforward
> >answer or wavered. I concluded that there is an enormous amount of
> >uncertainty as regards the Simple Past Tense.

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