LL-L "Phonology" 2005.03.10 (09) [E/LS]

Thu Mar 10 22:57:31 UTC 2005

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 10.MAR.2005 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (ZeÃªuws)
=======================================================================

From: klaus schmirler <KSchmir at online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.03.10 (07) [E]

>What I find puzzling is that the shift /f/ > /x/ seems to occur
sporadically
>rather than regularly within the Low German group.  It seems to eminate
from
>the west, possibly from the Low Franconian area.  Forms like (_luft_ >)
>_lucht_ 'air' and (_koft_ >) _kocht_ 'bought' may occur in the westernmost
>Low Saxon dialects (also in Germany, assumedly those under continuing or
>previous domination of Dutch), are unknown farther east, but certain words
>have shifted pretty much throughout Low Saxon, such as (_after_ >) _achter_
>'after' (with some variants like _aster_ mentioned by Helge above).  I
>wonder if there is any explanation for this.
>
What's that stuff about Dutch and the mouth full of potatoes? (Answer:
inapproriate) I was very sceptical about your thesis that one fricative
is as good as any other (in my words, pardon me), until I heard myself
substituting an alveodental stop:

My younger stepson had eaten his plate clean the day before and
announced that he was going to do that the next day, too. I felt I had
to quickly intervene and said, with my mouth full, "Heuke!" ("Coogay!").

So the ch is a secondary development meant to keep you from spilling food?

klaus

----------

From: Helge Willkowei <helge.willkowei at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.03.10 (04) [D/German]

> From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
>
> Perhaps we have to add the achter-pronunciation of the Rendsborg-district
in
> Slesvig-Holsten which is actually "aster" instead of "achter', at least I
> was raised with that passed on from my mother's family.

I was just listening to a song by the folk band "Schmelztiegel" who sing
in one song of theirs "wi seten aster'n Diek" and although i intuitively
understood "achter'n Diek" i was a little confused by that. Aha, so you
just gave me the answer. Thank you!

Munter!
Helge

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.03.10 (07) [E]

Dag, Reinhard,

Du schreevst:
>
> There is another case in which in the Low German branch of language
> varieties /p/ alternates with /x/ (<ch>):
> ....
> As you can see above, /p/ here changes to /f/ where a long vowel (or a
> diphthong) is shortened (which is ordinary in the second and third person
> singular, not ordinary in the past participle).  In Dutch, where this /p/
> ->
> /f/ shift occurred in the past participle, this /f/ then developed into
> /x/.
>
> What I find puzzling is that the shift /f/ > /x/ seems to occur
> sporadically
> rather than regularly within the Low German group.  It seems to eminate
> from
> the west, possibly from the Low Franconian area.  Forms like (_luft_ >)
> _lucht_ 'air' and (_koft_ >) _kocht_ 'bought' may occur in the westernmost
> Low Saxon dialects (also in Germany, assumedly those under continuing or
> previous domination of Dutch), are unknown farther east, but certain words
> have shifted pretty much throughout Low Saxon, such as (_after_ >)
> _achter_
> 'after' (with some variants like _aster_ mentioned by Helge above).  I
> wonder if there is any explanation for this.
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

Door bie denk ick an een Oortsbeteiknung in "Dien" Hamborg:

"Hohe Luft".

Mi dÃ¼cht, watt dat von aule Tieden her "Hauget Lucht" (Upper German: "Hohes
Licht", "Hoher Leuchtturm", E: "High Lighthouse") ween is.

Woans is dat vonne West, as Du boben verklooren deist, no Hamborg komen? Or
is dat een heel oule Sook, noch van vÃ¶Ã¶r dat 'f'/'ch' (E: "after"--> LS:
"achter") Verschuuven?

Greutens/sincerely

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Moyen, Jonny!

Baven hest schreven:

> Door bie denk ick an een Oortsbeteiknung in "Dien" Hamborg:

Nu ja, de tÃ¼ddels dou ik den maal as 'n teyken up-vaten, dat Du so peu-Ã -peu
vun de olde baksige steed' weg kÃ¼mst.  ;-)

> "Hohe Luft".
>
> Mi dÃ¼cht, watt dat von aule Tieden her "Hauget Lucht" (Upper German:
"Hohes
> Licht", "Hoher Leuchtturm", E: "High Lighthouse") ween is.

Gedygen!  Dat wÃ¼ss ik touvÃ¶r nich.  Ik har my myn leevdaag' wunnerd, wat dat
mit de "hoge Luft" beseggen schal.

Tjer, man ... bÃ¼st seker, dÃ¼t "Lucht" is nich dat olde wourd, dat as
"luchte" an-vÃ¼ng un nu "lÃ¼cht" is, d.h. _Leuchte_, _Lampe"?

Dat wardt as eyn wourd schreven, gloyv' ik: "Hoheluft".

Den meynst dat is in 't Duytsche "reanalyseyrt" wourden ("lucht" > "Luft")?

> Woans is dat vonne West, as Du boben verklooren deist, no Hamborg komen?

Ik meyn, in 't west is dÃ¼t /ft/ > /xt/ starker, un daar kanst den verdacht
hebben, dat 't vun daar keym un sik na oosten tou in d'n sand verlÃ¶pt het.
Dat is man bloots 'n gedanken, 'n verdacht.

> Or
> is dat een heel oule Sook, noch van vÃ¶Ã¶r dat 'f'/'ch' (E: "after"--> LS:
> "achter") Verschuuven?

Ja, 'n aard verschuven is dat wul, man regelmatig is 't nich, is man bloots
'n sprungwys' verschuven.  Dat is dat gedygene daar by.  Vindst nich?

Nu, wouans kan wat vun Holland bit hin na Hamborg kamen?  Dat vind ik nich
so snaaksch.  TwÃ¼schen Holland un Nourdduytschland geyv 't in verledene
tyden keyn echte grenss. In spraak un kultuur geyv' 't 'n glad kontinuum, de
minschen trokken vun eyn end na 't annere (besÃ¼nners oostwarts), un dat
schrevene Hollandsch un schrevene Sassisch weyren in 't heyle rebeyd bekand.
BesÃ¼nners twÃ¼schen Amsterdam un Hamborg geyv' 't olde un starke schakels.
Spraaklich keym ook dat eyne un dat annere uut Holland na oosten, t.b.
"suutje" (< _zoetjes_), amend ook _butje_ (< _boetje_, un _bonsche_ vun
Vransch _bonbon_?).

Wees' bedankt vÃ¶r Dyn vermaaklichen gedanken, Jonny!

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

==============================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
======================================================================