LL-L "Grammar" 2005.03.26 (03) [E]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.03.25 (04) [E]

In the old Christmas carol "Away in a Manger",  the cattle are lowing...
But the older Germanic word would in any case be "kine" from OE cyne,
plural of cu.
Only really seen in the King James bible now.

Paul

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From: "Grietje MENGER" <grietje at menger.fsnet.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.03.25 (04) [E]

Talking about 'mass' or 'uncountable' nouns - I never realised there was a
term for that - is there a term for nouns that are the same in both singular
and plural (but are not uncountable nouns). I'm thinking of English _deer_
and _sheep_, but also _canon_. Norwegian has a number of them, most noteable
_hus_.

What I'm also wondering about is whether, if you identify all these
"singularplurals", whether you could draw any conclusions as to the type of
nouns this reflects. Mainly agricultural, or mainly original words of Saxon
descent, or maybe loanwords?

Grietje Menger
Crieff
Scotland

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.03.25 (04) [E]

Unlike Dutch and Dutch Low Saxon _vee_ cattle, because this is only used
with "is": het vee is in de weide - the cattle is/are at grass. Ingmar

>Ron wrote:
Low Saxon _vey_ (<Veh>) and German _Vieh_ for 'cattle' is also treated in
>the "cattle are" fashion

>I *have* heard some people use "is" with "cattle," so it seems that in
>some dialects it *is* a mass noun.  Note that many people say "are" with
>organizations (especially in non-American English).  I wonder if "are"
>with uncountable "cattle" is a similar case.

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From: Ben Bloomgren <ben.bloomgren at asu.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.03.25 (04) [E]

are with organizations

Ron and all, listen to BBC Five Live for very long, and you will hear news
of, yes, I'm an American too, soccer. They will do a piece on one of the
British clubs. Chelsea play this Saturday against West Brom. We would say
that Chelsea plays on Saturday.

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From: Helge Willkowei <helge.willkowei at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.03.25 (04) [E]

Ron schreev:

> Low Saxon _vey_ (<Veh>) and German _Vieh_ for 'cattle' is also treated in
> the "cattle are" fashion.

German "Vieh" is in my opinion used in the "cattle is" fashion:
"Das Vieh steht auf der Weide."
But you can also use "Vieh" as normal countable noun:
"Was steht denn da für ein Vieh/Viech auf der Weide?" - "Meine Viecher
sind heute müde." In this usage "Vieh/Viech" doesn't necessarily mean
"cattle", but is also pejoratively used for any kind of bigger animal.
This usage of "Vieh" is somewhat substandard.
-helge

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From: "Paul J.M. Sweet" <stingray at terabolic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.03.25 (04) [E]

Here in Australia we use the counter 'head' but always in the singular no
matter
the number of cattle described. For example, 'We run 800 head of cattle on
this
property'. And cattle is used in plural as a noun, e.g. 'Our cattle are now
mustered to be shipped'. Paul Sw.

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