LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.22 (04) [D/E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 22.MAY.2005 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.22 (02) [E/German]

In reply to Ingmar's

<I can't say I really like the tone of messages like below; but maybe
that's because I'm indoctrinized too much with the Dutch "Polder-model">

Ja, je hebt gelijk. Het idée dat iedereen altijd gelijk heeft wordt ons
met de paplepel ingegeven. We moeten daarom ieders oplossing waarderen;
(zolang het maar niet in onze zuil is, want daar hebben wij gelijk). Het
resultaat van zulk denken is een bont paard dat op vier benen hinkelt.
Ik herinner mij ook dat mijn Moeder zei: " Jij hebt gelijk en jij hebt
gelijk", terwijl zij eerst met haar linker wijsvinger onder haar neus
langs naar haar rechter slaap wreef en dan met haar linker wijsvinger
naar haar rechter slaap. Dat is iets wat ik nooit door iemand anders heb
zien doen. Ik vraag me af of het van haar Twentse familie afkomstig is.
Heb jij dat ooit gezien?
Groetjes, Jacqueline

(Yes, you are right. We are indoctrinated in the idea that everybody is
always right, and therefore we have to honor everybody's solution to a
problem; (as long as people of our religion or social status don't have
to believe or honor it amongst ourselves). That kind of thinking results
in
a horse of many colors, which plays hopscotch on four legs.
I also remember my mother saying "You are right and you are right",
while she rubbed her right index under her nose in the direction of her
left cheek bone first, and then in the same manner, her left index in
the direction of her right cheekbone. I have never seen anybody else do
that. It must be something from her family. Are you familiar with this
gesture?)

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From: Ben J. Bloomgren <godsquad at cox.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.21 (11) [E]

How much of this intelligibility between "German" and Low Saxon is just
diglossia? In the case of Arabic, if you don't mind, Ron, they have scores
of dialects that take a back seat in formal contexts. Could this be the case
in northern Germany?

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language variety

Hi, Ben!

Why would I mind?

I've said it many times, again today:

> In fact, *any* language, irrespective of
> genealogy, may be and has been dicussed as long as there is some sort of
> relevance to the focus.

Besides, I myself mention all sorts of languages from all over all the time.
There is no Lowlands-Polizei that slaps handcuffs onto you if you mention a
language other than a Lowlands one.  So don't apologize!

Ben, in Germany there is no such situation as in Arabic.  The comparison
does not work because Literary Arabic exists mostly because Arabic is an
international language (used over a vast geographical area).  In the case of
Low Saxon in Germany, "High" German always wins out, is the default lingua
franca whenever there is any danger of problematic communication (and
oftentimes even when there is no such danger).  I guess the same is the case
in the Netherlands where Dutch would serve the same function.  In other
words, in each case a "foreign" (i.e., different) language is resorted to,
in the Americas probably English.

And therein lies the problem, as far as I am concerned.

In Northern Germany, the general sentiment seems to be "All right. I want
the language to be official and protected, but I don't want it to be really
independent, and I sure as heck don't want it to have its own standard."

My educated guess is "nationalism" is at the root of it  -- and I call it
"nationalism" in the broadest (not necessarily sinister) sense.  I believe
that it stems from the inculcated notion that (1) language and ethnicity
must coincide (a basic European notion that hangs around like a bad smell),
and (2) Low Saxon cannot really be a separate language because (a) it does
not come with its own ethnicity and (b) it is used locally in Germany, by
"real Germans," not by _Ausländer_ ("foreigners," "aliens," which includes
most people that are not ethnically German, irrespective for how many
generations they have lived in the country).  This may be why you tend to
get the silent treatment when you make a song and a dance about Low Saxon in
the Netherlands, given that no one I can think of would in this day and age
claim that the Low Saxon speakers of the Netherlands are really an ethnic
German minority.  I strongly suspect that this is why, when put on the spot,
people will say that the Low Saxon dialects of the Netherlands don't really
belong to the same language, are "too strange" (especially
orthographically), that _Platt_ stops abruptly east of the
German-Netherlands border.  If you push on even further, you'll get the
customary cop-out "Well, you know the Dutch and their sensitivity ..."
(See? It's *their* fault! ;-)  My experiences show the opposite.  On the
whole, I have come across far more openmindedness from Netherlanders.)

The notion that there are Low Saxon speakers elsewhere is much easier for
them to deal with: you can just say that their speakers are Overseas Germans
or "Russian" Germans.

However, there's at least a glimmer or two of hope at the horizon.  There
are individuals and organizations that do invite cross-border contacts and
collaboration, and to their credit, these are only in Germany (unless
there's something going on in the Netherlands that I am not aware of).  For
instance, the city of Leer and the Freudenthal Society both solicit literary
submissions from both sides of the border (usually referring to
_Niederdeutsch/Nedersaksisch_, not being able to bring themselves to saying
"Niedersächsisch," probably because of the German states _Niedersachsen_ and
_Sachsen_ and because of their awareness that the average German is quite
unaware that this language is really Saxon).  It is for this reason that I,
true to my sinister agenda, support these, am a member of the Freudenthal
Society (also because it encourages any sort of literature in Low Saxon,
from traditional to avantgarde).

I personally have no difficulties understanding any dialect of Low Saxon,
certainly not in writing.  Even if I am an aberration, mutual comprehension
between the dialects is moderate to excellent and would be even better if
uniform orthographic principles were used.  A lingua franca or standard
dialect would help but would not be absolutely necessary if uniform
orthographic principles were employed.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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