LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.23 (05) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.23 (03) [D/E]

Here is my last contribution again, then.

Ron wrote:
> I'm pretty darn sure that's because of your mental approach (i.e.,
> German-conditioned expectations).  The way it's spelled is very similar to
> how Low Saxon was spelled before Germanization.

Or wasn't rather German spelled this way, too, back in the olden days? No
wonder so few people could read and write then. :-)

> Which would explain the incredible, unfortunate spread of _Patentplatt_ in
> Germany, a type of pseudo-Low-Saxon in which pretty much each word and
each
> sound is taken from German and transformed by means of a formula, often
> resulting in weird if not comical formations.  By and large, this is a
> different creature, though you might argue that it's within the alleged
> range.

Of course, there is that, but this is not what I was talking about (although
this would be similar to "Missingsch" from Hamburg, which seems to be fine
with you). You'll be surprised, but I am rather talking about yourself,
actually - you may not even be aware of this, but very many, if not most, of
the Lower Saxon proverbs and expressions that you quote are directly
transferred from High German (possibly sometimes vice versa), where they
have the very same meaning, wording, and sentence structure. You may not
even be aware that you are doing this, since you, too, grew up with those
conjoined twins in mind. And that's where I often get the feeling: "This is
German. Then why can't he say it is German?". This is indeed different from
what our Jonny writes (and Fiete, who left the list some time ago), who
appears to be a "genuine" native speaker.

Well, whoever decided what would be included in the list, I am most
certainly not making a point to change that now. I think it is the
standardized treatment of Lower Saxon in an effort to establish it as a
language that gets to me most, though. Why would all speakers of Platt want
to give up their own language from "back home" in order to speak a
one-size-fits-all hybrid instead? How is that any different from
"Patentplatt"? At least, in the German-based spelling, every region can
beautifully express its own individual dialect of Lower Saxon. In my area,
for example, many villages have posted a sign in Platt that greets drivers
who are leaving, saying "Kumm wedder" or "Kumm taurüch" (come back). The
spellings vary greatly, but consistently, when you approach from the south
(from Hesse, that is), consonants change, vowels shift, and you realise just
how different local flavours are even a mere 6 kilometres away. I have heard
very similar things about East Frisian villages, for example. Who would want
to tell those people they now have to speak standard Platt in order to
follow a political agenda, even to the best of purposes? And who would
follow that, given the proverbial stubbornness of Lower Saxons?

Mind you, I am not speaking for myself here - as explained before, I do not
even have any local flavour of Platt that I could claim as mine, so I am
speaking my very own hybrid variety (or rather, thinking it, because I
pretty much avoid speaking it these days - it always comes out as Dutch).

Gabriele Kahn

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Hi again, Gabriele!

> Of course, there is that, but this is not what I was talking about
> (although
> this would be similar to "Missingsch" from Hamburg, which seems to be fine
> with you).

Nope.  It's a different animal altogether.  Missingsch dialects grew
"organically" over a long time within communities as a type of
place-specific *German* dialect with place-specific Low Saxon substrates,
much like Stedsk is Dutch on Frisian substrates and China Coast Pidgin is
lingua franca English on a Chinese substrate.  Patentplatt, on the other
hand, is not really a community creation but an occasional idiolect, mostly
made up by translating directly from German on the spot, thus producing a
type of faked language, much like, say, putting on a "Texas accent" without
really being proficient in the dialect(s).  Besides, I don't "approve" of
Missingsch, just accept it as a type of *German* dialect, which, as you may
know, has outlived its transitional usefulness and is now seriously
moribund.

> Why would all speakers of Platt want
> to give up their own language from "back home" in order to speak a
> one-size-fits-all hybrid instead?

Out of which hat did you pull that one? ;-)  Who ever proposed such a thing?
Might you have read something into things that weren't really there?  Who
has ever suggested that people should give up their local dialects?  This is
a ill-founded conclusion many people jump to, which in my book falls into
the category of "kneejerk (over)reaction."  A standard variety (be it a
tight or loose standard) merely functions as a type of interdialectical
lingua franca to be utilized whenever deemed necessary.  No one has to give
up anything for it.  This is very much like the example of Standard Arabic
Ben mentioned.  Because people use it on occasion does not mean that they
give up their home varieties or use their home varieties if mutual
comprehension across dialect lines is good.

> How is that any different from
> "Patentplatt"?

(1) "Patentplatt" is a case of literal translation from a different language
by way of a formula.

(2) The creation of a standard variety happens *within* a given language
(not from one language to another), arriving at a type of medium by drawing
from (preferably all) existing natural dialects *within* that language.
This tends to be a lengthy process -- usually a combination of "engineering"
and organic evolution (i.e., community effort by way of usage) -- rather
than being an individual's impromptu creation.  This is what happened in the
case of all standard dialects, such as Standard German, Standard English and
Standard Dutch.

> You may not
> even be aware that you are doing this, since you, too, grew up with those
> conjoined twins in mind. And that's where I often get the feeling: "This
> is
> German. Then why can't he say it is German?".

Actually, no.  As far as I can remember I have been aware that this is a
different language, and I was able to tell _Patentplatt_ from the real thing
already as a child.  My "intuition" was confirmed to me when I began
learning English and Scandinavian and exposing myself to Dutch and
Afrikaans.  And this was before I found out that sizeable communities use
the language outside Germany without German in tandem.  So it seems that you
and I approached the subject from different angles, using different
faculties.  (This may simply be that I was a weird kid and never accepted
things as facts just because people touted them as such.)  However, it
should be at the latest when you realize that the language is used elsewhere
without the German umbrella, including in the country in which you lived and
whose standard language you know, that a light bulb goes on in your head and
your intellect tells you, "OK, I'll take it from here."

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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