LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.25 (06) [E/LS]

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.25 (02) [E/LS]

Reinhard wrote:
> > Ron claimed that in my region, the Solling, Lower Saxon has been much
more
> > heavily watered down and diluted than elsewhere - on the coast, for
> > example.
>
> This would be a misrepresentation.  I did not *claim* it.  I very clearly
> said that I *supposed* or *guessed* it.

Forgive me for saying so, but this is just silly. Either you make a
statement, or
you do not, but nit-picking verbs seems a bit, well, pathetic. If I remember
it right, no verb was used at all - neither claim, nor suppose, nor guess (I
can't believe that now I am doing this, too). It reminds me of one of my
biology professors who once actually wrote in one of his papers: "However,
we believe to have shown that we do not need to assume this as a fact, but
we may tentatively conclude that it is very likely so."

> > A revival
> > of Yiddish would have to come from within, not without. Telling Jewish
> > people (being German, no less) that they ought to speak Yiddish (I know,
> > your approach is not that blunt, but I have to word this somehow) is a
bit
> > like all those "male feminists" trying to tell women how they should go
> > about that whole emancipation thing.
>
> This is yet another misrepresentation.  I would characterize it as
> "twisting" if I did not suspect you of actually convincing yourself of
these
> things.  I'll let the quite irrelevant thing about German pass rather than
> perceive it as a below-the-belt blow, because I think I know you well
enough
> to give you the benefit of the doubt, and I am familiar with the genesis
of
> this unfortunate endemic sentiment.

I see nothing twisted or misrepresented here. You very clearly wrote:
"Should we just say, "So be it," let "them" win, and move on?". And I even
asked: who is this "we"? We linguists? We Lowlanders? You did
not answer this. At any rate, it has to be a group that includes you, the
speaker - I may not be a linguist, but that is how I understand basic
grammar. And how could "being German" be a below-the-belt blow, coming from
another German? You pointed out (at least I think it was you) that the
holocaust was a major reason for the decline of the Yiddish language. And I
cannot believe you
would be oblivious to the fact that certain sensitivities have prevailed to
this day. This has nothing to do with assuming a collective guilt, but
everything with respect for the victims.

I have no idea what bent your nose out of joint, and how come you
disregarded every single
one of my arguments, answering in an increasingly emotional, dismissive, and
patronizing fashion instead, and trying to ridicule my points, ignore them,
or write them off as mere attempts to provoke for no good reason (if ever I
did such a thing, it would be in a light-hearted, humorous way, as it has
been in the past, and very obviously not to be taken seriously). I have done
nothing to deserve this,
and I am both surprised and disappointed at your reaction to things that you
obviously do not want to hear, whatever the reason may be.

May I quote:
>You would do well to run your responses through
> reality and fairness checks before you send them off.

Very true. For everybody. So far, I have been very trusting about having my
say on this list, knowing
that it would not be twisted, rejected, misconstrued or dismissed. I am
sorry to say that this is no longer so. I have voiced some valid concerns
that I have had for years, and, frankly, I cannot believe your reaction. It
is you, not I, who sees "the enemy" where there is none, and seems to be
very determined to kill the messenger. I have no reason in the world for
dealing you, or anyone else, for that matter, random "below-the-belt blows",
or even arguing just for argument's sake. And you should have no reason
whatsoever for making such out-of-the-blue accusations.

Please tell me that you are going through a severe midlife crisis, are
having an IRS audit, or are facing extensive root canal treatment. All of
those could be considered valid reasons for your over-the-top reaction.

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.25 (02) [E/LS]

So "Moin" is expanding its way even outside the North, Travis.
Funny! Same here in the Netherlands, more or less, with "Hoi",
which means the same as "Moin" and which is also a Northern,
Low Saxon expression, especially when meaning "Goodbye".
When I moved to the Northern province of Drenthe almost 30 years
ago, I found it very strange that the other children said "Hoi!"
when they left, or when I left. I knew "Hoi" but only as "Hello".
In Drenthe "Moi" -the same as your "Moin" of course, means "Hello".
The last ten years or so, "Hoi" meaning "Goodbye" has spread through
the whole Netherlands, even in the South where it is fighting "Houdoe",
"Hajje" etc. but originally I think it was a usage of Groningen, Drenthe
and Fryslân only.

These words are used for "Goodbye" in different regions of the Netherlands:
"Hoi!" in the North, but now becoming popular everywhere
"Doeg!" in the East, but can be used everywhere except for the South
"Doei! Doeidoei" in the Randstad, but used everywhere. Very much disliked
"Houdoe!" in Brabant and Southern-Gelderland, sounds charming to D. ears.
"Hajje!Hojje" in Limburg. Meaning the same as <houd(-)oe> (Hold yourself)
"Dieje!/Adieje" in Southern Limburg (< French/Walloon Adieu)
"Ajuus!" in the East, but elsewhere too (< French Adieu)
"Aju!" in the East, especially around Arnhem
"Tjuus!" in Winterswijk (from German Tschüss)and maybe some other towns
"Daag!/Dag!" everywhere

Okee, tot ziens hè!
Ingmar

>Travis Bemann:
>>One large example that sticks out in my mind is the use of the word
>"moin".  When chatting online in German, I've ended up picking up that
>expression from other people in it, and it's ended up replacing "guten
>Tag" and whatnot in my normal everyday usage.  Of course, the fact
>that many of the other users of this particular German-language IRC
>channel use that expression is probably a major factor in such.
>
>Of course, I've ended up being laughed at by individuals from southern
>Germany, who've said that it sounds really "provincial" (to use the
>words of one individual) and like, but I use it nonetheless simply
>because I'm used to it being used so heavily, and because it is more
>succinct (and sounds nicer and is more informal) than the alternatives
>(and "hallo" just sounds way too much like English).  Anyways,
>apparently from what I've read, the word is not actually native to
>German per se, but is a loan from Low Saxon into German that has
>actually caught on throughout northern Germany, and is apparently
>progressively expanding its usage area southwards within German.

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.25 (02) [E/LS]

Reynhard-

door hesst Dy sylvst oyverdroopen! Kann vöör Lachdroonen meyst ne meyr
schrieven. Gradoleyr Dy, för dyssen allerbesten >Bloydsinn<!

Allerbest, allerbest:

Greutens

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

----------

From: Rikus Kiers <kiersbv at tiscali.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.25 (02) [E/LS]

Ron,

About moin in LS.
I don't know if it is really a contribution to the discussion, but from
times and times ago it is very usual in Drenthe that if you pass someone in
the street or whereever you greet by saying "moi". Looks alot like moin and
is related I suppose. So it tends to be very Saxion.
Last time I start getting small and smaller and wee small between all the
exposed knowledge in cryptical signs about how to pronounce . Is there a way
or a booklet or something to learn a little bit more about these signs?

Rikus Kiers

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

OK, Gabriele, you win, and you will have the last word, whatever that might
be.  I'll give you an "A" for persistence at least, whatever that's worth.
You see, I keep trying to connect dots that apparently aren't meant to be
connected.  "Midlife crisis"?  Nope. Been there, done that.   None of the
other stuff either.  I think it's all those years of foreign brainwashing.
You see, apparently I don't even know myself what I have said and what I
meant, need others to explain it to me.  If I were you I'd long given up on
me.  So thanks for caring and holding out hope, but I seem to be a lost
cause.  I'm sure everyone else will agree.  Everybody must be really
impressed by our little performance.  I apologize to them for my undignified
part in it.  (Oops! That would be *all* of it, wouldn't it?)  And I
apologize to you, Gabriele, for doing whatever those irrational, undeserved
and over-the-top things are over which I seem to hold the monopoly.  I'm
sure we can cool down, get over the bump and regain some modicum of decorum,
if not agreeability and -- heaven help! -- agreement.  I still believe that
we are really, basically on the same side.  And (I really, really, really
don't mean it in a condescending way) I appreciate and like you, especially
your sense of humor, yes, also them peanuts.

Now, Ingmar and  -- moi(n) to our rarely featured Travis and Rikus!  The
theory seems to be that _moy_ (<moi>) and _moyen_ (<moin>) started off as an
adjective, something like _moyen dag_ '(I wish you a) nice day!'.  In German
areas in which _moy_ 'nice', 'agreeable', 'pleasant' are not used, many
people started assuming that it comes from _morgen_ 'morning'.  I didn't
cook this up, but I think it kind of makes sense.  Is this what you think,
Ingmar and others?

Un Jonny, myn makker ...

> door hesst Dy sylvst oyverdroopen! Kann vöör Lachdroonen meyst ne meyr
> schrieven. Gradoleyr Dy, för dyssen allerbesten >Bloydsinn<!

Wees bedankt!  Hest Dy dat ook schoyn bildlich vör-steld (so mit bessem un
pot)?

Leyve Jonny, dat is 'n aard vründschups-gaav', nu wy schynts goud tousamen
koent ... Un, ja, dat is nu Dyn, un Du kanst 't an de wand hangen or kanst
't Tant Mayer tou eten geven.  Kan wesen dat ik eyrstdaags 'n rymel voer us
Gabriele schryv' wen ik oever myn "krys'" weg bün un dat water wedder wat
kalmer is.

> Allerbest, allerbest:

Dy ook!

Groytens,
Reinhard/Ron

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