LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.27 (03) [A/E]

Fri May 27 21:35:21 UTC 2005

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L O W L A N D S - L * 27.MAY.2005 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: "Language varieties" [E]

> From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.22 (02) [E/German]
>
> Btw I don't remeber having presented Middelsprake as a Lingua Franca for
> this list, please tell me where I did. And I also think that MS is already

You didn't? I owe you an apology, then!

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

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From: Thomas Byro <greenherring at gmail.com
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.26 (09) [E]

Ron and Mike

I met a taylor, formerly from Istria, once.  He reported that a type
of ethnic cleansing of the Italian population too place under Tito.
He said that he could have stayed but would have had to endure
indignities such as giving up his family name and adopting a slavic
one, etc.  He was not exempted even though his wife was Slovene.  What
rubbed salt in the wounds was that he had to give up his house without
compensation but that they would not let him leave until he paid the
back taxes on the house. He bundled all his tools aboard his ship but
at the last moment was offered the opportunity to fly to the USA.  He
gladly took up the offer because he wanted to get away as fast as
possible.  His remaining possessions remained on board the ship.
Unfortunately the ship was the Andrea Doria.

Tom Byro

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From: "Mark Dreyer" <mrdreyer at lantic.net
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.26 (10) [D/E]

Beste Gabriele,

Onderwerp: "Language varieties" Nog!

Moet assebliefies nie onttrek nie! oftewel, van die string maar nie van
die lys nie.

Ons almal geniet al te hartelik u inset. En waar twis in treursaak ontaard
het, onthou net dit is geen enkeling se toedoen, maar genadelose noodlot
oor geslagte se onderdrukking tussen volkere as geheel. Dit staan 'n mens
toe om dit van sy rugvere af te skud, nê! Scholastic objectevity, hey? En
as ek enigsins aangehits het wil ek eerbiedig om verskoning vra.

Die uwe, my Reuse Skotse Muis
Mark

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From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com
Subject: LANGUAGE VARIETIES 2005.27.05 [FMHD/E]

Liobothe Dalathhaimarjes,

Hijaz hails. It is with extremely heavy heart that I have witnessed two of
my dearest friends quarreling with such internecine infliction of hurt
that it appeared inevitable that it would end sadly. Usually, nobody but
siblings and visionaries spend such passion in venting their frustrations.

Ron and Gabriele, please, both of you, we all need the clear and articulate
intellect that you two provide to this, my linguistic home, magnificent LL-L.

I can understand both of your standpoints. Both have well-considered and
logical underpinnings. Yet the fight itself is similar in principle to the
centuries upon centuries of misery that have resulted from the ancient
conflict: What should we fence out? What should we fence in? Wars have
been fought, laws written and broken, families founded and foundered, all
for the sake of introducing emotional content into a waiting powderkeg of
language and politics: The most volatile abstract substance these
two-legged mammals have invented, with the possible exception of
language, politics and organized religion where they intersect.

In the immortal words of that famous time traveler, Rodney King, "Can't we
all just get along?"

Gabriele, please come back. Your outreach and inclusive instincts reflect
a young and gentle soul. LL-L has need of such.

Ron, please do not feel threatened by the fear of being misunderstood. It
will happen from time to time. But in your heart of hearts, you are that
rare combination of brilliance and compassion.

Both of you, take a tip from Rainer Maria Rilke: "Wer sich als Quelle
ergiesst, den erkennt die Erkennung; und sie fuehrt ihn entzueckt durch
das heiter Geschaffne, das mit Anfang oft schliesst und mit Ende beginnt."

Now, brodareis jah swaisterilo, I have found the solution to that most
ancient of Teutonic mysteries, "who are the Bavarians (Bajuwari), and
where did they come from?"
Official stories aside ("we came from the Boehmerwald. You don't need to
know more, you Saupreiss!"). Or, "we're really Celts who adopted
proto-Germanic and then invented the Second Sound Shift to distinguish
ourselves from you idiot Dutch."

I have located a document, the Fruehmittelhochdeutsch (Early Middle High
German) poem Annolied (ca. 1000 a.d.). It says, in verses 310-18 of the
Bavarians:

Dere geslehte quam wilin ere,
Von Armenie der herin,
Da Noe uz der arkin ging,
Duer diz olizui von der tuvin intfieng.
Iri ceichin noch du archa havit
Uf den bergin Ararat.
Man sagit daz dar in halvin noch sin
Die dir Diutschin sprechen
Ingegin India vili verro.

Thus, the author was convinced that Bavarians came from Armenia, not far
from Mount Ararat, where Noah tied up his ark after the dove brought him
an olive branch. It adds that Bavarians are only half-way here: They may
speak German, but they think like India.

Question: Why is this important? Answer: It isn't. That's the point. But
getting it wrong about our neighbors is a chronic human condition.
Sometimes the rancor, rage, and just plain fable is intriguing.

There is more than enough room in LL-L for inclusion and exclusion of
other-listly matters at the same time. Let's help preserve the richness
and creativity of Lowlands tongues. All of them. They should survive,
prosper, and be healthy. So should Hochdeutsch. So we should help the
underdog. It's more fun. Especially if we can convince our two divas to go
out on the stage together again and sing an aria that will bring the house
down.

Thanks for being there, Gabriele and Ron.

Sorry for being so wordy. It's just something I feel very deeply.

Mith frijandeleiken hails,

Arthur

Arthur A. Jones
arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com

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From: Uilleam Òg mhic Sheumais <goidel.glas at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.26 (10) [D/E]

2005/5/26, Ingmar said:

> What, you're going to withdraw?! I think that is very bad news, Gabriele,
> that is a damned shame, I'm really sorry about that. What a loss for the
> list! But I understand that you feel disapointed, even hurt, and I think
> Ron really needs to apologize to you very seriously.
> Maybe you could take a "vacation" for a while in stead of leaving, e.g.
> choose to get no mail from the list, because really, Gabriele: we cannot
> miss you!

Gabriele, though I don't agree that Ron should apologize, I sincerely
ask you to reconsider. Is all of the fun you have on this list really
worth so little as to give it up on account of a tiff between you and
Ron? Neither of you should apologize for your opinions; everyone is
entitled to her or his own. But I think feelings were hurt. Something
perhaps should be done - but let's not be too hasty. Dialogue brings
reconciliation; isolation leads only to itself.

Beannachdan,
Uilleam Òg mhic Sheumais

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Dear Lowlanders,

Hello from (not-so-sunny) Northern California (for another change), and a
good Memorial Day Weekend to everyone in the United States!

Thanks to everyone who has thought and responded to this ... well ...
whatever it may have been.  It is good to know that you care.

First of all, I misunderstood Gabriele as you did.  It turns out that she
is not withdrawing from the List but from the debate forum.  Perhaps even
this technical misunderstanding illustrates how easily words can be
misinterpreted when there are differences in the ways people think,
communicate and process information.

After some rest, reflection and meditation I am now apologizing to
Gabriele and to the rest of you.  I do so not because some may say or
think I should, not because of Gabriele's announcement, and certainly not
because of a shift in my intellectual and emotional positions, but because
I mean it and deem it necessary, am taking responsibility for my part in
the dissonance and acknowledge that some of my conduct was unbecoming,
especially in my position.  So I ask all of you to forgive me.

The only things I can say in my favor are that, as I am realizing today, I
have indeed been under more stress than usual lately (thus have been
operating with a higher than usual adrenalin level and perhaps with a
higher than usual testosterone level), and that there was on my part a
serious attempt to understand what was going on.  Genuine (and still
remaining) puzzlement led to frustration and finally to exasperation, all
the while wondering if this was for real, an elaborate leg-pulling prank
or, toward the end, even "baiting."  The other thing I can say in my
favor, not as an excuse, is that I would not have bothered, would not have
spent so much time and energy on this, if I did not really care about
Gabriele, whom I have known for a good number of years.

This means that I allowed myself to be diverted from my philosophical and
spiritual paths which call for absolute compassion and are based on the
premise that intellectual and emotional truths are relative and
subjective, are as ephemeral as everything else that we think, see and
touch.  So it is all right that we march to different drummers and that
someone else's drummer's beat gets us flustered for a step or two, as long
as the drummers don't start beating each other and us in the process.

It is most gratifying to realize that so many of you genuinely care.

Thank you!
Reinhard/Ron

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