LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.11.23 (01) [E]

Wed Nov 23 17:34:13 UTC 2005

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L O W L A N D S - L * 23 October 2005 * Volume 01
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From: "Paul Tatum" <ptatum at blueyonder.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.11.22 (02) [E]

Hello everybody,

Ron/Reinhard van den yooesseh wrote:

 > I am now tending to suspect that in the case of the genesis of
pidgins and
 > creoles too much of the focus has been on the people that ultimately
adopted
 > and developed them. In other words, I believe we mustn't
underestimate the
 > roles of the (usually European) power elites and their agents in the
genesis
 > of such language varieties. The "seeds," namely the basic vocabulary and
 > grammatical structure, of such varieties are quite likely to have been
 > carried from colony to colony by Europeans (or peopl! e of European
descent)
 > with or without the aid of relocated slaves or relocated
non-Europeans that
 > were conversant in another contact variety.
 >
 > A compelling case is that of the striking lexical and structural
 > similarities between Oceanian pidgins and creoles, Australian pidgins and
 > China Coast Pidgin, where you would not expect such similarities to exist
 > between China Coast Pidgin and the others, at the very least. We
certainly
 > ought not totally disregard a possible role played by Chinese
laborers and
 > tradesmen that tended to follow European colonists or were actually
 > transported there by them. However, I believe that the Europeans involved
 > had a definite role in spreading the seeds for such types of varieties.
 >
...

 > Regards,
 > Reinhard/Ron

I'd always thought that the structural similarity amongst the world's
pidgins was due to their selection of the 'basic' elements of syntax,
discarding all the variant rules which give each of the world's
languages its distinct and unique character, i.e. pidgin syntax is close
to the core of Chomsky's universal grammar. AFAIK, the grammars of
pidgins, such as Chinook, which did not have an indo-european language
as one of their 'partners' are still similar to the indo-european based
ones - it seems that it doesn't matter what the partners are/were, the
resulting pidgin has 'pidgin grammar'.

Heather Rendall wrote:

> The diary is now very difficult to read as the ink has faded and he
> necessarily wrote v small on tiny scaps of paper. It is the job I am
> putting off till my old age - actually transcribing the rest. I have only
> done the 1st few years that is all.
>
> If you think the scraps of language preserved here might be on interest,
> the whole diary is available in the Australian archives (in Canberra?) in
> photocopy - which is easier to read than the original now.
> It should be listed under our name   D I  & H Rendall.    The name of the
> diarist was Philip Johnson of Birmingham England
>
> Hope this helps
>
> Heather
These scraps of Australian are like gold now, so many languages having
disappeared unrecorded (we're lucky if we even know their names now, let
alone having any evidence from them. He sounds like a 'bonzer geezer'.
Good luck with the rest of the transcriptions, I can recommend a good
optometrist if needed :-).

Regards, Paul Tatum.

P.S. Sorry, I didn't know where to ask this, I had a look on the website
but couldn't find any info, so here we are. is there a guide to the
ascii transcription that is used on this list to render IPA?

----------

From: "Andrys Onsman" <Andrys.Onsman at CeLTS.monash.edu.au>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.11.22 (02) [E]

From: Andrys Onsman
Subject: Language Varieties
To: Paul, CrÃostÃ³ir and Heather

> <>
>
> "I'm actually researching the history of language use amongst Australian
> Aboriginals at the moment, and what you say here is very relevant. As you
> know, indigenous Australians are typically some of the most multi-lingual
> peoples in the world, with trilingualism usual and quadrilingualism or
> quintilingualism not uncommon."
>
> I actually wasn't aware of that, probably because the only Aboriginal
> people I had any contact with were east coast urban dwellers, few if
> any of whom speak
> anything other than English. I assume your studies apply Outback?

<>A lot of the Aborignal language (revival) work is being done in the
urban areas: Kaurna, Tjapukai and Palawa Karni spring to mind. Perhaps
not mothertongues yet such as Tiwi, Pitantjatara or Yolgnu, but
empowering nonetheless. The numbers of east coast urban dwelling
Aborigines (Concrete Kooris, as Anita Heiss refers to herself) speaking
their ancestral languages is increasing: a comparative point for Lowland
languages.

I think CrÃostÃ³ir was referring to the insistence by the British that
the locals learn English because it is a civilised language, which does
seem based on a (now) dubious notion of natural superiority.  So, yes,
it is a post-hoc rationalisation, but that doesn't mean it wasn't racist
or belittling at best: again a point for comparison with some of the
Lowland languages.

>I think any kind of reasoning such as you give smacks of anti-colonialist
>rhetoric - after the fact.

Best wishes
Andrys Onsman

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Hi, Paul!

I believe universal grammar is an important part of it, but a lot of
lexical sharing such as "fellow" as an adjectival marker and counter,
objective-case pronouns in subject phrases and many more seem to indicate
that migration and importation played important parts as well.

> P.S. Sorry, I didn't know where to ask this, I had a look on the website
> but couldn't find any info, so here we are. is there a guide to the
> ascii transcription that is used on this list to render IPA?

http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/home.htm

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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