LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.11.23 (04) [E]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 23 November 2005 * Volume 04
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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.11.22 (02) [E]

Paul Finlow-Bates wrote:
  "I actually wasn't aware of that, probably because the only Aboriginal
people I
had any contact with were east coast urban dwellers, few if any of whom speak
anything
other than English. I assume your studies apply Outback?"

  Yes. Considering only around 20 per cent of Aboriginal people actually
speak any
sort of Aboriginal language or creole, it does only apply to the Outback.
The more
remote you go, particularly in northwards, the more likely you are to find
speakers of Aboriginal languages, and multi-lingual ones at that.

  Heather wrote:
  "I think any kind of reasoning such as you give smacks of anti-colonialist
rhetoric - after the fact."

  Not particularly. It is an undeniable fact of history that colonial
officials in
Australia viewed Aborigines as less than human, and spoke to them
accordingly.
Therefore your reasoning smackes of an apologia for colonial times and an
elision
of basic facts about those days.

  Go raibh maith agaibh,

  Críostóir.

----------

From: "Obiter Dictum" <obiterdictum at mail.ru>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.11.23 (01) [E]

Ron wrote:
> [...] a lot of
> lexical sharing such as "fellow" as an adjectival marker and counter,
> objective-case pronouns in subject phrases and many more seem to indicate
> that migration and importation played important parts as well.
>
Odd: the Russian Far-Eastern pidgin of the 19th and early 20th centuries
(developed
for trade with Chinese, Koreans and small local Tungusic minorities
(Nanai-Goldi,
Orochi, etc.) also has objective-case иво (ivo, "him") throughout,
including the
subject, the imperative for all forms of the verb, and паря (parya,
the Siberian
from "paren'", "young fellow")!
Vlad
>
> http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/home.htm
Thanks for the link, Ron. BTW, any idea as to how to denote positional
"half length"
in vowels (and in consonants, for that matter)?

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Hi, Vlad!  Good to hear from you again!

Well, I can understand the "coincidence" of objective pronoun use, perhaps
because it's more "marked," more "prominent" (?)

> the imperative for all forms of the verb, and паря (parya, the
> Siberian
> from "paren'", "young fellow")!

What's this one used for?  Also as a "counter" or adjectival marker? 
(E.g., Tokpisin _dispela haus_ 'this house', _waitpela haus_ 'white
house', _tripela haus_ 'three houses').

> Odd: the Russian Far-Eastern pidgin of the 19th and early 20th
> centuries  (developed
> for trade with Chinese, Koreans and small local Tungusic minorities
> (Nanai-Goldi,
> Orochi, etc.) also has objective-case иво (ivo, "him") throughout,
> including the subject,

Interesting!  Didn't I hear that variety spoken in the Oscar-winning movie
_Dersu Uzala_ (Дерсу Узала) by Akira Kurosawa (about Russian
soldiers and a Nanai -- "Goldi" being bye-bye now -- hunter)?

Folks, in case you are *still* mystified about Vlad, bear in mind that
there are sizeable Korean minority communities not only in China but also
in what used to be the Soviet Union, particularly in Kazakhstan.  I
suspected our Vlad to be a member of it, but the rascal threw me off by
spelling his surname <Lee> instead of <Li> or <Rhee> in Roman script,
which left open the possibility that he belonged to the much smaller
community of "Soviet Americans" (particularly African Americans) whose
founders went to live in the Soviet Union (something rarely mentioned in
the US).  However, had he spelled it <Li> there would have still been the
possibility that he was a descendant of the Dungan community that is also
particularly concentrated in Kazakhstan (besides China).  (The Dungan are
"Moslem Chinese," referred to as 回族 Hui(-zu) in China (where they are
the largest ethnic minority), calling themselves also Ñ
уэйзў
_xuejzÅ­_ and speaking their own Mandarin dialects written with Cyrillic
script outside China.)

At any rate, folks, I strongly suspect we can learn a thing or two from
Vlad, given his ethnic and linguistic background, experience and
abilities.  Great to have him on board, isn't it?

Hey, Vlad, talkin' about "Dungan" ... Any chance of organizing a Dungan
translation and/or some other juicy translations for our anniversary
project (http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/)?  Just askin' innocently.

And here's the answer to your question ...

> Thanks for the link, Ron. BTW, any idea as to how to denote positional
> "half length"
> in vowels (and in consonants, for that matter)?

Yep. You're asking the "right" person (as our David Barrow will confirm)!

It's :/

(It took me long enough to learn this one and do Dave proud.)

Cheerio!
Reinhard/Ron

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