LL-L 'Names' 2006.08.02 (01) [E/LS]

Wed Aug 2 16:09:31 UTC 2006

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L O W L A N D S - L * 02 August 2006 * Volume 01
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From: 'Stellingwerfs Eigen' <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>
Subject: LL-L 'Names'

Ron schreef:
> Beste Piet,
> Groten dank voer de leks, man keyn maal hev ik al de Nedderlanders
"Hollanders"
> noemd (wen sey nich uut Holland sÃ¼nd, un ook den dou ik dat toumeyrst
nich). Nich
> in verledene tyden hev ik dat daan, un ook in de toukumst schal ik dat
nich doun.

Beste Ron,
Veul dank veur jow dudelik bescheid. Ik was weer es vusen te vlogge mit mien
reaktie. Ik hebbe al je linkies nog niet naolopen mar et is mi'j wel now
dudelik wodden dat d'r over de hiele wereld een protte 'Olde land'-schoppen
en 'Ollanders' bestaon.
Mar now blief ik nog al mit 'n vraoge zitten: waoromme bin d'r zovule (50%?)
Nederlaanders die (krek as ikke) gien Hollaanders nuumd wodden willen.
Hi'j' - of iene aanders - daor ok idenen over?

Dear Ron,
Thanks a lot for your clear explanation. Again, I was too quick in my
response. I didn't click all your links yet but I now realize that there are
lots of 'Ollands' and 'Ollanders' all over the world.
But now I've still a question: why are there so many (50%?) Dutch people who
(like me) don't want to be named 'Hollanders', while it happends so often?
Do you - or anyone - have any idea?
Mit een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf,
Piet Bult

PS.
Yes I know, my English isn't what it could be but just good enough - I
hope - for spending a holiday abroad or write to this list.

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names 

Dear Piet,

Thanks for your acknowledgment.

Please let me tell you a couple of things for future reference:

(1) 
Although once in a while topics like language proficiency come up and
individuals' personal attitudes may show, or you may think they show, we as a
group do not have a language proficiency competition going.  This means that you
should use whatever language you wish without feeling uptight about the quality
and without feeling compelled to apologize.  Perfection is not required or
expected, and I would not permit postings that ridicule or discourage people. 
While individuals are entitled to their opinions, we as a group endeavor to stay
away from making people feel unduly selfconscious or even bad about their
language proficiency, educational level, and so on.  In fact, we encourage people
to try out their language skills in a supportive, nurturing and safe environment.
 Making mistakes is human, and you are perfectly welcome to be human around here.

(2)
As longer-standing members of LL-L will attest, I advocate and try to practise
using language and terminology that are as unoffensive to as many people as
possible.  This has nothing to do with much poo-pooed "political correctness" but
has everything to do with consideration of and respect for sensitivities in
international and interethnic communication.  Of course you can't please
everyone, but you can at least try and demonstrate goodwill, at least wherever
you are aware of sensitivities and preferences.  For this reason alone I would
not use "Hollander" (unless in very specific contexts), just as I would not call
Yakuts or Volga Tatars "Russians" (though they may be Russian citizens),
Cornishmen and -women "English" (though they are English citizens) or Kurds
"Turks" or "Persians" (though they may be citizens of Turkey or Iran).  As you
get to know me better, you will realize this and will give me the benefit of the
doubt whenever something I say causes a flag to go up at your end.

> But now I've still a question: why are there so many (50%?) Dutch people who
> (like me) don't want to be named 'Hollanders', while it happends so often?
> Do you - or anyone - have any idea?

I alluded to this under (2).  Whether unofficially or officially, it is never a
good idea to call an interethnically united country by one of the ethnic names,
which usually is the name of the historically most powerful, "uniting" (=
conquering) ethnic group.  So, if someone asks, "Are you German?" he or she might
occasionally get a reply like, "Well, I'm a German citizen but I'm really Frisian
(~ Sorbian ~ Turkish ~ Italian ...).  On the other hand, names like "Canadian,"
"Australian," American" (USA), "British" or "South African" don't come with
ethnic overtones, are thus neutral, clearly refer to citizenship only.

In the case of the Netherlands it was the aristocracy of Holland whose power
extended into Flemish, Brabantish, Limburgish, Cleves, Frisian and Saxon areas,
and initially they forced their language and culture on the people of the
conquered areas.  Obviously, resentment of this will linger on for a long time. 
Some people are more relaxed about it than others.  Many Netherlanders, including
non-Hollanders, have no problem using "Holland" and "Dutch" in reference to the
entire country.  For others it's a red rag.  Fortunately, the official and
non-ethno-specific name "Netherlands" was chosen, which is safe, and I don't see
why I should use "Holland" instead.

In the case of Low Saxon speakers of Germany you can see the final stage of the
development where people give up.  (Many of their ancestors did try to resist
Germanization actively or passively.)  They are now considered ethnically German,
and most of them agree with this, would even feel offended if you suggested
otherwise.  This is why they tend to be psychologically somewhat conflicted (or
"wishy-washy") when it comes to language assertion and official recognition, also
oppose non-German spelling for their dialects, and so forth.  Some still feel
that it's a sort of treason or disloyalty (bearing in mind that the ghost of the
European notion "one country = one ethnicity = one language" is still haunting us
and many people still oppose the presence of "strange" ethnics and languages on
their turf -- as you could see also in the Australian letter or article you saw
fit to publish in one of the issues of the _Liende_ for some reason).

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: I don't think that in Northern Germany there is any dialect that drops the
"h".  A shift like "Holland" > "Olland" is therefore not to be expected.

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