LL-L "Lexicon" 2006.02.13 (01) [D/E]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

   L O W L A N D S - L * 12 February 2006 * Volume 07
=======================================================================

From: Henno Brandsma <hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2006.02.12 (07) [E/LS]

> From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
> Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2006.02.12 (02) [D/E]
>
> Some more about Heaven/Himel/Hemel:
>
> There's a famous LS song "Herrn Pastor sin Kauh", about the
> parson's cow that has unexpectedly died and is divided up among the
> villagers. There are many humorous verses about who gets what part,
> and why, and it is one of those songs where you get to make up
> verses about those present. One of the final verses says that the
> soul, of course, went straight to heaven, because it was the
> parson's cow after all.
>
> Rather than write down the verse from memory, I decided to google
> and copy it. I found three different versions:
>
> De Seel, de steig den Hewen tau,
> Denn't wor je 'ne Pastorenkauh.
>
> De Seel', de steeg den Häwen tau,
> dat wier ja 'ne Pastorenkauh.
>
> Wiel dat was 'n Pastorenkau,
> Gong dat seel naar Himmel tau.
> (this is supposedly from Schleswig-Holstein

The Schleswig-Holstein version seems to be influenced by the original
Frisian from
a large part of that area (I once read part of a thesis on the Low
Saxon of this area
where this influence/substrate was the subject of investgation, and
there were still hundreds
of forms and words from older North Frisian present). "Himmel" is the
usual North Frisian form,
the -i- instead of -e- is an extra indication, as normally in MLS
this would have been long e:
in open syllable. Modern West Frisian has "himel", BTW.

Regards,

Henno

----------

From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2006.02.11 (05) [D/E]

Hallo Jacqueline,

OK, ja ik ben een Pietje Precies. Altijd geweest. En ik zal het altijd wel
blijven. Je zal me moeten nemen zoals ik ben. Ik geef graag toe dat 'lucht'
veel vaker dan 'hemel' gebruikt wordt in de betekenis van "uitspansel".
Anderzijds is 'hemel' voor mij een heel gewoon woord, helemaal niet
poëtisch. Maar...'naar lucht happen' is helemaal wat anders: dan heb ik
zuurstof nodig.
Met vriendelijke groeten,

Roger

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Hi, Jacqueline, Roger and alleman (un -vrou)!

The difference you Dutch speakers appear to perceive between _hemel_ and 
_lucht_ interests me.

As far as I am concerned (and other speakers might disagree), the use of 
German _Himmel_ and _Luft_ and the use of North Saxon _heven_* and _luft_ 
are pretty much the same as that of English _sky_ and _air_ respectively  (* 
or _himmel_ in some dialects, such as the one of Gabriele's stomping 
ground).

In most non-religious contexts I understand _Himmel_, _heven_ and "sky" to 
denote the firmament, in ancient times the physically unreachable "ceiling" 
above the earth (the "floor"), the atmosphere.  Clouds travel in it, the sun 
shows itself in it by day, moon and stars appear in it at night, and a bird 
flying really, really high up might be said to be reaching the sky, also 
perhaps the tallest mountain tops.

_Luft_, _luft_ (~ lucht_) and "air," on the other hand, is the space between 
sky and earth.  If I fly a kite (as some may be tempted to suggest I go and 
do) or throw a ball high up, if I see a feather floating, autumn leaves 
being blown about by the wind or a bird flying, I use _Luft_, _luft_ (~ 
lucht_) and "air" to denote the space.   I might say that the balloon I let 
go of rises up through the air and, in "poetic" language, eventually 
"reaches the sky."  (NB.: I am exclusing scientific contexts here.)

What I hear you say about _lucht_ in Dutch makes me understand that you can 
use it the way "sky" _et al._ are used, that _hemel_ in the sense of "sky" 
is of lesser use, may sound formal, literal or even archaic (?).  Is it 
perhaps similar to using English "heaven(s)" in the sense of "sky," which to 
me has a rather literal sound to it as well (e.g., "storm clouds hastening 
across the heavens")?

What about Low Saxon dialects of the Netherlands?  And Afrikaans? 
Limburgish?

Now, what about Scots?  I know there are _lift_ and _pen(d)_ for 'sky' and 
_heiven_* for 'heaven'.  Is there an overlap their as well?

Roger (Pietje):

> Je zal me moeten nemen zoals ik ben.

Ik ben zeker dat hier iedereen van je houdt zoals je bent, beste Roger. En 
nauwkeurigheid zal altijd nodig gehad worden.

Thanks,
Reinhard/Ron 

==============================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
======================================================================