LL-L 'History' 2006.07.09 (03) [E]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 09 July 2006 * Volume 03
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L 'History' 2006.07.08 (05) [E]

    From: Sandy Fleming
    Subject: LL-L 'Minorities' 2006.07.08 (02) [E]

    >From: Wa2kbzKarl at wmconnect.com
    >Subject: LOWLANDS-L Digest - 2 Jul 2006 to 3 Jul 2006 (#2006-177)
    >
    >There is also an old group of Germans in Russia, from Katy the great's and
    >Peter's day.
    >
    Changing the subject here, this reminds me of something I was wondering
    about lately: what does it mean when someone is titled "the Great"?
    There aren't many of them, are there? Alexander, Catherine, Peter, Herod...?

    Sandy Fleming
    http://scotstext.org/

    ----------

    From: R. F. Hahn
    Subject: History

    Sandy:

    > Alexander, Catherine, Peter, Herod...?

    Not to forget Karl (Carolus Magus > Charlmagne, German _Karl der Große_ "Charles
    the Great") who "integrated" the Saxons.

    Perhaps ruthlessness is what "great" stands for in most cases. Or something has
    been omitted: "the great ..."

Not forgetting Alfred, the only English king to get the tag - though the earliest
use is several centuries after his death.  Of course, all most people know is
that he burnt some cakes.....
 
Canute (Knut) is also sometimes refered to as "The Great", and he was king of
England for a while.
 
As for ruthlessness, in those times at least, if you weren't, you didn't stay
king for very long.
 
Paul Finlow-Bates

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From: Wesley Parish <wes.parish at paradise.net.nz>
Subject: LL-L 'History' 2006.07.08 (05) [E]

> From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
> Subject: LL-L 'Minorities' 2006.07.08 (02) [E]
>
> >From: Wa2kbzKarl at wmconnect.com
> >Subject: LOWLANDS-L Digest - 2 Jul 2006 to 3 Jul 2006 (#2006-177)
> >
> >There is also an old group of Germans in Russia, from Katy the great's and
> >Peter's day.
>
> Changing the subject here, this reminds me of something I was wondering
> about lately: what does it mean when someone is titled "the Great"?
> There aren't many of them, are there? Alexander, Catherine, Peter,
> Herod...?
>
> Sandy Fleming
> http://scotstext.org/
>
> ----------
>
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: History
>
> Sandy:
> > Alexander, Catherine, Peter, Herod...?
>
> Not to forget Karl (Carolus Magus > Charlmagne, German _Karl der Große_
> "Charles the Great") who "integrated" the Saxons.

That history suddenly came into focus for me when I investigated my mother's
maiden name "Savill", also spelt "Saville" and "Saveall". One of the real
books on English surnames derived it from the French Sainville and/or
Saunville. I investigated those leads and found three towns with those names
in France, one on French/Belgian border, one in the Vosges Mountains, and one
in between Paris and Brittany. That book translated the name as "Saxon
Town", or Saxon settlement. Sassisch Stadt.

That intrigued me. I knew that the Saxons had never invaded the Frankish
territories, much less settled there. But most of European history was a
total blank to me. So I dug around some more and concluded they had been
forcibly resettled there. Probably a result of Carolus Magnus' exiling of
those 10, 000 Saxon nobles and freemen in the last stages of that
bloodthirsty "integration".

Nice to know some of my ancestors were such a PITA to the greatest military
power of the European/Mediterranean region that he had to deport them just to
enforce his "peace".

But have you noticed - Carolus - Karl - is "the Great", but people seem to
instinctively barrack for Widukind when they hear the story? Karl has the
might, but Widukind has the right.

just my 0.02 pfennig

Wesley Parish

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: History

Hi, Wesley!

Didn't Charlie have eight thousand tribal chiefs executed in one say?

By the way, North Germans and Eastern Netherlanders (who are largely descendant
of Saxons) have been routinely taught about Charlemagne's greatness in school. 
At least in my school there was not explicit mention of his treatment of Saxons
and Slavs.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: 'Thomas Byro' <greenherring at gmail.com> 
Subject: LL-L 'History' 2006.07.08 (05) [E]

 I thougth that body counts qualified rulers to the status of "The
great" On that basis Wikipedia omits Hitler, Stalin and Roosevelt.
Stalin and Roosevel of course were responsible for the greatest
"ethnic cleansing" in history, the expulsion of milions of Germans
from eastern Europe, resulting in the murder of 3 or 4 million human
beings.

Thomas Byro

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