LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.04.30 (05) [E]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L  -  30 April 2007 - Volume 05

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From: MWI <wintzermichel at wanadoo.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2007.04.22 (03) [E]

Don't have the answers, Ron.
But I have a question:
Why do you (feel obliged?), when you cite the
name "Middle Saxon" to add in brackets
"(Middle Low German)".
Is this to make it clear for the ignorants?
To my way of thinking this equation is even
wrong, if for no other reason than an
ideological one.
Kumpelmenten,  *Mike (Wintzer)*
**
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Lowlands-L List <lowlands.list at gmail.com>
*To:* LOWLANDS-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
*Sent:* Monday, April 23, 2007 7:57 AM
*Subject:* LL-L "Delectables" 2007.04.22 (03) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Delectables

Folks,

Here's a tasty little morsel for those among you that are interested in
language contacts and in naming of foodstuff with a hefty Lowlands twist.

In Draveno-Polabian (a Slavonic language once spoken on the Lunenburg Heath,
see tinyurl.com/yq3vxf), the word wris(o) means '(firm) cheese'.  It is
believed to be derived from Middle Saxon (Middle Low German) vrêsch meaning
'Frisian'. Apparently, this referred to sliceable, matured cheese, the type
that came to be known as "Dutch cheese." (The fresher, softer cheese was
referred to as sar(o) (< Slavonic *syr(a) .)

To top it off, the type of cheese then (in the 18th century) considered best
among Polabs (and their Saxon neighbors?) was called ingelsa wriso in
Polabian, thus literally "English Frisian."  The German glosses of the time
identify it as the best Dutch cheese to be had.  So at least in German it
was considered Dutch.

Was this just "Dutch" in the catch-all sense ("under Hollandish power"), or
was there a difference between "Dutch" and "Frisian" when it came to
cheese?  Did the Saxons and their Slavonic neighbors make a distinction here
that in German was absent?

Was "English" just a fancy word for "way out there," or was English-style
cheese indeed considered a notch up from its Frisian or Dutch cousins?

Wondering ...

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Thanks, Mike.

I agree that I ought not feel obligated to add those "explanatory" labels,
but I got into this habit because I got tired of having to respond to
private email messages asking for explanations.  Perhaps I'll try it again
without and see if that has subsided.

As you know, in Germany the language varieties got renamed to make them
sound German:

   1. Altsächsisch > Altniederdeutsch
   Old Saxon > Old Low German
   2. Mittelsächsisch > Mittelniederdeutsch
   Middle Saxon > Middle Low German
   3. Niedersächsisch > Niederdeutsch, Plattdeutsch
   Low(er) Saxon > Low German

Niederdeutsch (Low German) is ambiguous in that it can mean three things:

   1. the Low German language group (consisting of Low Franconian and Low
   Saxon)
   2. the Low German (both Low Franconian and Low Saxon) varieties used
   in Germany
   3. Low Saxon varieties used in Germany

However, this has been enshrined in Germany and Austria (and to a large
degree in Switzerland), and Germanics departments in other countries tend to
follow it, assumedly because their head honchos got educated at
German-speaking universities or by German head honchos, and they and their
students largely depend upon funding from German and Austrian sources, or
from German-oriented sources elsewhere, few of which would look kindly upon
heretic naming.

As for ambiguous labeling, there are similar things out there.  For
instance, "Dutch" can include all Hollandish, Brabantish and Flemish
varieties, in some people's books even including Limburgish, Netherlands Low
Saxon and Afrikaans, but it can also specifically denote Standard Dutch.
"Romanian" can mean the Romance language varieties of Romania, or it can
include those as well as Moldavian and Aromanian (Vlach, Wallachian) ones.
"Chinese" can mean "Mandarin" or specifically Standard Mandarin or can
include all Sinitic languages.

Cheers!
Reinhard/Ron
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