LL-L "Yiddish' 2007.02.17 (01) [E/German]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L - 17 February 2007 - Volume 01

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From: Karl-Heinz Lorenz <karl-heinz.lorenz at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Yiddish' 2007.02.16 (01) [E]

Lee (Goldberg) wrote:

      I don't know much about Alsatian Yiddish, but I'll venture a guess
about a couple of the words Karl-Heinz listed:
      SPEIS(T)ISCH z'Nacht
      "shabes tsunakht/shabeyse nakht" ('Sabbath night')

But the woman says definitely something like "Speisisch" whereas she says
several times "Shabbess" or "Shavess". It would mean that there are two
words for Sabbath in Alsatian-Yiddish. Or: "Shabbess" is the noun and
"speisisch"/shabeyse" an adjective.

      KA(R)PFE(N)
      "kerb" (plural of "korb", 'basket')

Could be: ledige Karpfen = leere Körbe

      Z'KCHORRE LADER Z'SCHLOMMES
      sounds like it might be a Hebraism (designating members of some
charitable society?) but I can'f figure it out

It must be a profession "sinngemäß". Das ist die härteste Nuss, so sieht's
jedenfalls aus.

      I agree with Ron that we're dealing with a mixture of (Western)
Yiddish and Alsatian German influences.  Which is the substratum and which
the superstratum, I don't
      pretend   to knowknow. But  from the sample here, words with the long
A vowel, like

      aach (NHG 'auch')
      haamat, haam ('Heim(at)') , laafe(n) ('laufen')
      gekaaft ('gekauft')

      look like textbook examples of Western Yiddish, while the diphthongal
pronunciation of 'EI' in things like

      meini Kinderzeite(n)
      mei
      eigani

      suggests an influence from outside the Alemannic region (my
understanding is that Alsatian German has 'min' and 'zit' for NHG 'mein' and
'Zeit').

Definitely, you're right:

In Alemannic it should be "MINE Hamat isch Grüsse(n) etc." and also in
Alsatian. But I'm not sure totally. But also if it's "mei" etc in Alsace,
this would be a non-Alemannic feature in it.

The woman always says "geweise(n)" whereas it is "gwan"/"gwä" or "gsi(n)" in
Alsatian. Grussenheim is in the "gsin"-Region, it is between Selestat and
Colmar:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Els%C3%A4sserditsch.jpg

"Geweise(n)" is not Alemannic but Suabian or Central German as Palatine for
example.

And "GarkiSCH" for "Garküche" (btw a "Schnellrestaurant" in the old days, a
kind of McDonalds then) looks also central German, because in Alsatian I
suppose it should be "GarkiCH".

And there is the sentence: "Ich hab bei dir ka(kei) güti Sche ket(ghet)".
She starts in High German and continues in Jiddisch-deitsch.

So the conclusion is, that the jews in Alsace spoke a language, that was
more or less different from Alsatian, the language of the gojim.

So what about a concept of West-Yiddish as an "Ausgleichsprache" with
features of different mostly Hight-German dialects in it?

      (Incidentally, 'kimpet' = 'kind' + 'bet' is a common term for
childbirth in Eastern Yiddish.)

Now I just listened to the sample again and yes, it could be "kimpet"
instead of "kindbett".

Karl-Heinz

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Yiddish

Bùschùr, Karl-Heinz, an vielmols merci!

Dü hèsch obe gschriewe:

> In Alemannic it should be "MINE Hamat isch Grüsse(n) etc." and also in
Alsatian. But I'm not sure totally. But also if it's "mei" etc in Alsace,
this would be a non-Alemannic feature in it.

Not to put too fine a point on it (and to help a non-Lowlands tangent to go
on for much longer), let me add that some Lowlanders may be a bit confused
by the above, due to terminology.

I was always under the impression that Alsatian is Alemannic, i.e. a branch
of Low Alemannic.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alemannic_German)

So it seems to me that "Alsatian (Alemannic)" vs "other Alemannic varieties"
or "non-Alsatian Alemannic" would make these distinction clearer.

Bis bàll!

Reinhard/Ron
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