LL-L "History" 2007.06.04 (01) [D/E]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L  -  04 June 2007 - Volume 01

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From: Marcel Bas <roepstem at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2007.06.03 (06) [E]

Good day, everybody.

In Afrikaans you get *liewe(n)heersbesie *and *skilpadjie -*- little
tortoise --* *(and varieties of that).
Reinhard, you wrote that Low Saxon has *Sunnenkäver* and *Sunnenperd *and
the like, that refer to the sun. In Afrikaans the common name for a cicad is
*sonbesie*.

But we also see that many languages refer to cattle. Now I wonder if the
Afrikaans use of '-besie' in *sonbesie *is indeed a variety of the Dutch
word *beestje*, which means 'little animal, little insect/bug', or if
Afrikaans '-besie' refers to a cow (in Afrikaans *bees*).

In Dutch 'beestjes' is commonly used for any small insect or bug. "Er zitten
beestjes op mijn t-shirt", or "Als ik te veel gedronken heb zie ik allemaal
beestjes" (!).

Best regards,

Marcel.

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Traditions

Reference to cattle:
Dutch: Lieveheersbeestje
Irish: bóín Dé
Low Saxon: Herrgottskoh, Maan(d)kalf, Sünn(en)koh
Russian: Божья коровка

References to the sun:
Low Saxon: Sünn(en)käver, Sünn(e(n))küken, Sünn(en)koh,
     Sünn(en)worm, Sünn(en)peerd, Sünn(en)schiener


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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2007.06.03 (06) [E]

 Dear Paul, Lee, Ron & All,

Subject: LL-L "Traditions"

From: Mark Dreyer:
> They call a praying mantis 'Gamal Shlomo' 'Solomon's Camel'.
From Paul:
> I learnt recently  that Hebrew/Aramaic gamal can mean 'rope'
> as well as 'camel', hence the translation (mistranslation?)
> 'easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than
> a rich man to enter heaven'

From Lee:
> I think the process of deriving Hebrew terms for 'lady bug' and the
> like that were suspiciously close to the European Christian terms was
> exactly as you described, except that it was usually through the
> intermediary of Yiddish (because Hebrew was not a spoken language).
> Thus Yiddish Moyshe Rabeynus kiele ('our master Moses's cow')
> for 'lady bug'.
> (Then again, there might conceivably have been a need to put the word
> "lady bug" in a rabbinical court record in Hebrew, for instance, if a
> husband being sued for divorce on grounds of cruelty claimed that he
> was only trying to kill the lady bug crawling on his wife's face...)

*Ron *wrote:
> Mark, I wonder if some of those Hebrew names (except the one for
> praying mantis probably) were inspired by European cultural and
> linguistic contacts.
> Thanks, Lee.  I agree with all you said. Sometimes there
> appear to be different source languages, such as in the case
> of the Hebrew word for "wren".

Seconded: Though this is chiefly to you, Ron, & apologies for the tardy
response to your last mail. The Ashkenazi influence on Jewish culture as a
whole is very strong indeed, so much so that even the Tamanim, the Yemenite
Jews, observe what they also call 'Jorzeit' for their departed parents.
Historically the Jews have had a significant presence in many parts (The
Eastern) of what are now deemed Germanic Europe for longer than the Germans
have been there.
I expect 'Ladybird' - "Our Lady's Bird" did have a primary influence on the
Hebrew term for the beetle. So also for the 'Gidron' the wren, & for the
same reason you postulated, that it is indeed "King of the Hedgerows".
I'm not a Talmudic scholar of course, & know no Aramaic, so I'll go with
Lee, but to point out that 'The eye of the needle' was a euphemism, I've
been told, for a sally port in a city wall, so designed that a camel (or any
other mount or beast of burden) couldn't pass through it; which doesn't
really weaken your argument. I don't think Our Lord's (I'm a Protestant -
ahem) word's were mistranslated, but if they are misunderstood, the
misunderstanding only lends strength to the metaphor, wouldn't you say? You
can't take it with you.
Your motivation, Lee, for having to name the ladybug in a rabbinical court
has a certan legalistic elegance, but not, I think, for a wife. At least,
all decent Jewish unions since time immemorial have armed the bride a priori
with a gett - a divorce settlement, in case she wants to use it. This was a
measure against agunuth, abandonment, as in 'missing in war'... By the way,
isn't Moses reputed to have HAD black cattle with red specks?

Yrs,
Mark

P.S. to Elsie; have we mentioned 'Sonbesies' for the cicadas, "Little cattle
of the Sun"?
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