LL-L "Etymology" 2007.06.25 (05) [A/E]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L  -  24 June 2007 - Volume 05

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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.06.25 (03) [E/LS]

Ah! Dankie, Marcel!

Elsie Zinsser
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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.06.24 (05) [E]

Hi all,

Dankscheen, Reuben, for the clarification. It still does not give us the
negative connotation in the colour yellow. I wonder if ghosts were
viewed as being yellowish?

Regards,

Elsie Zinsser

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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.06.24 (05) [E]
 Dear Elsie & All

Subject: L-Lowlands "Etymology'

Is this a 'chicken or egg' thing, as it is a 'van die os op die esel' thing?

Which came first, the colour, the gland or the product? Ek praat van geel,
nê! En gal. The English call the first 'yellow' & the second 'gall', & it
takes a linguistic archaeologist to trace the relationship from the one to
the other. I am just puzzled that 'gall' hasn't changed to the same degree
over the ages. Can a boffin enlighten us?

Alles van die beste,
Mark

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From: Sönke Dibbern <s_dibbern at web.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.06.25 (01) [E/LS]

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.06.24 (03) [E]

*Ron:*

LS *'Geelsnacker'* isn't a man who talks 'Houghdüütsch' (Standard German)
in its first meaning at all. It's an everyday word here: *'hey snackt
geel'*and that definitely means that someone is talking in a
*boastful, immoderate* way- no matter if in LS or Standard German. We
wouldn't denote a man talking Standard German 'Geelsnacker', we prefer '*hey
is 'n Houghdüütschen'*. I guess 'Geelsnacker' in that special meaning to be
one of those words having become famous by non-natives.

Moin Jonny, Ron, and all.
In my Dithmarscher LS,  'geel snacken' is an expression which means that the
speaker uses 'Missingsch', he mixes Standard German and Low Saxon. Having
said that, it may not be surprising that I have thought this 'geel' to be
related to Danish 'gal', 'wrong' in English. But I've never had the time or
resources to investigate into this matter, so it's just an idea. Maybe it's
even one of those words which have made their way from LS into the
Scandinavian languages.

Regards,

Sönke
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

I'm glad our new friend Sönke said that, because his perception of the
expression is similar to mine, the one I mentioned in the past.  I've only
been going along with this "yellow" = "(High) German" thing lately because
everyone else keeps saying it.

"To speak yellow" (geel snakken) to me means to speak Low Saxon with German
influences, interference or affectation.  It doesn't actually mean to speak
Missingsch (which is a German dialect on Low Saxon substrates) but a stage
before that: a Low Saxon speaker trying to speak German or spiking his or
her Low Saxon with German-derived bits (typically calques and stylistic
"fineries," which was typical during the so-called transitional phase of the
17th-19th centuries).  In extension, it means to me a German speaker trying
to speak Low Saxon but ending up pretty much translating from German.

OK. I should have checked earlier ...

Old Saxon:

galla: gall; gray, green, blue, shiny, smooth < IE *ĝʰel- (cf. E. "gall")
gelo: gray, green, blue, shiny, smooth < IE *ĝʰel- (cf. E. "yellow")
gelp: boasting, mocking, screaming, yelling < IE *ĝʰel- 'to yell'
        (cf. E. "yelp", "yell", "gale", "galp", "gawp", "yawp", ON gjalla)
gelpkwidi: affectated spreech, mocking talk
galm: noise, clamor, screaming, yelling
galpon (galp-): to show off, to boast
        (cf. E. Friesl./Oldenb. LS galpen 'to cry', 'to yell',
        E. "yelp", "galp", "gawp", "yawp")

By the way, this IE *ĝʰel- is also the root of words like "glimmer" (OS
glêmo), "glad" (OS glad), "glass" (OS glas), "glide" (OS glīdan), "glint"
(OS glind), "glitter" (OS glītan), "glow" (OS glōd) and "gold" (OS gold).
(Might the idea *"shrill", *"strident" be common to all of them?)

I am now beginning to wonder if, as they disappeared from the lexicon of Low
Saxon dialects, remnants of galp- and gelp mentioned above came to be
reanalized as German gelb 'yellow' and then translated to native geel (gääl)
'yellow'.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron
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